Saints v Quins 2nd October 2022 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:07:13:40:42 by Saint Ted.

Shame Courts is out but otherwise a strong looking team, let's hope our front row can hold up and we should see a very good game as usual vs Quins. I think commentators tend to overhype the head to heads but fun to see Mitchell vs the old stager at 9 and Smith vs our experienced 10 in Biggar.

What happened to Ribbans, thought he might be on the bench at worse.

Quote:

Deesaint
What happened to Ribbans, thought he might be on the bench at worse.

Yes; and not listed in the unavailable group.

I think he was listed in the England training group which I think meets tomorrow.

Yes Ribeye was in the training squad and came off at half time, I had assumed he may feature but perhaps he was injured

The England squad members are all available for the weekend - unless for some reason they asked for Ribeye not to play but I'd have though he could use the game time. Maybe a slight knock in the game so not risked but missed off the list for absentees?

Very interesting listening to the Rugby podcast from Lawrence Dalliglio. He mentions Saints should be worried as our results, wins around top four sides is abysmal!!

In theory then, we will get hammered tomorrow!!

Big Lawrence reckons we should sell our rock star fly half for a couple of world class props / internationals, if we are going to progress.

We certainly have to compete at the set piece, otherwise we’ll be a mid table side. One would like to think Dowson has a vision, plan to overcome this constant problem each season!!

I can’t even remember when was the last time we beat Sarries, Tigers, Quinn’s or Chiefs??

Without looking it up we beat quins last time we played them in the league and we beat chiefs in the league last season. It’s OK to remember when saints do something good.

29/04/22 Saints 32 Quins 31

Quote:

Hollywood JK
Very interesting listening to the Rugby podcast from Lawrence Dalliglio. He mentions Saints should be worried as our results, wins around top four sides is abysmal!!
In theory then, we will get hammered tomorrow!!

Big Lawrence reckons we should sell our rock star fly half for a couple of world class props / internationals, if we are going to progress.

We certainly have to compete at the set piece, otherwise we’ll be a mid table side. One would like to think Dowson has a vision, plan to overcome this constant problem each season!!

I can’t even remember when was the last time we beat Sarries, Tigers, Quinn’s or Chiefs??

Lol must be reading the COYS forum! (Well bits of it.)

Quote:

Saint Ted
Without looking it up we beat quins last time we played them in the league and we beat chiefs in the league last season. It’s OK to remember when saints do something good.

Yes! The focus on the negative does get wearing.

Surely Dallaglio has more important things to worry about than the quality of our Props.

We'll come cherry picking when his side goes into administration... Oh wait. Cheap shot I know. Those comments should be directed at their Board. Oh wait!

I'm looking forward to today's match.

Familiar faces from last time around. Head to head match ups across the park as last time we met - and won.

Who has learnt more over the past 6 months?

If we can keep going for 80 minutes
And not give silly ties away in first 20
We will win



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:02:10:23:39 by Deesaint.

Listening along on the radio and not inspired with confidence thus far, 5 mins in. I've heard us knock on at the restart, knock on in possession, go back for the scrum as Quins knocked on originally, concede the penalty at our own put in (undone by the second shove, as so any times last week), and then concede a try from the ensuing 5m maul after said penalty was kicked for touch.

And while I've been typing this Quins have scored a second try. It's going to be a long afternoon.... 14-0.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:02:15:11:44 by Matthew.

This is going to be painful. This is atrocious

Accuracy will be the buzz word after this game. Mitchell butchers a 3 v 1, Collins knocks on. Passes being made that just aren't on.

Commentary talking about risk vs reward. I don't think we have the balance right.

So flaky. Weak defence, terrible ball retention.

Quins score again off the back of another Saints error. Have had to turn the radio off as it's just painful to listen to.

Here we go again.

Better now. But as the point has been repeatedly made we're playing a team that likes to play. I imagine Saracens would have put a lot more on us by now.

Basic skills are appalling……..touchline fever rife in our backs……communicate ffs

I still think we will win this
If we can get the first score in second half
And stop dropping the ball

We should have scored 4 tries by now

Quote:

Deesaint
If we can keep going for 80 minutes
And not give silly ties away in first 20
We will win

Clearly Quins first two tries are your fault - you jinxed it!

I know
Middle name ‘ Jonah ‘

Just what is in those half-time team talks? Nullified and smashed last week after half time, and now on a yellow card and another try to the worse this week.

(Been out and back and turned the radio back on ... what a mug!)

Quote:

Deesaint
I still think we will win this
If we can get the first score in second half
And stop dropping the ball

We should have scored 4 tries by now

With all due respect, I completely disagree.
Yet again, we are clueless, rudderless and frankly very, very flaky when any pressure comes on.
Still, at least we have a young exciting backing!

Backline not backing !!!

Lennie on the radio ... 'if he put his head in his hands he might drop it'!

Quote:

Saint Gordo

Quote:

Deesaint
If we can keep going for 80 minutes
And not give silly ties away in first 20
We will win

Clearly Quins first two tries are your fault - you jinxed it!

Jonah (or are you Judas?), I still. blame you. Three tries combined in the first 10 minutes of each half. aaaargh.
You certainly called it right. This is not good watching, especially after breakfast!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:02:16:25:24 by Saint Gordo.

Carley as incompetent as ever.

Pathetic, what are we doing. How can a professional rugby team have so many handling errors?
You wait all week excitedly for a match and have to suffer through this. If we could actually keep hold of the ball we would win every week

And i'm turning off.....

Quote:

shiversaint
Carley as incompetent as ever.

Not as incompetent as we are. He ain't the problem.

I try to be positive
I want to be positive
But I’m losing the will

We should beat Worcester

Error after error. Not any official’s fault today.

Quote:

Saint Gordo

Quote:

shiversaint
Carley as incompetent as ever.

Not as incompetent as we are. He ain't the problem.

Isn't it strange how it's a different referees fault every week unless we win.
There is still a big, big problem at Northampton Saints Rugby Club.

Is a hand-off in the face not classified as head contact?

For every good thing Mitchell does, he also makes a stupid mistake.
Supremely talented, but just doesn’t seem to have a good rugby brain.

Let’s be honest, we don’t play very intelligent rugby as a rule…….

Great try by Furby. Perfect line and a great touchdown.

....I'm turning on again!

I suppose all one can say is that was one of those "What might have been" games.

Overall, Saints were in a position to win a match in which they played for about 40 out of the 80 minutes. So hard to watch for large portions, and just have to wonder what it is abut this group. Two bonus points is a reasonable take form this match. n

I posted earlier that I expected nothing and hoped for 2 bonus points. It could have been 5 but if you can’t hold onto the ball you get what you deserve. The scrum did hold up though.

Quote:

rugbymel
.... The scrum did hold up though....

And hats off to Manny Iyogun. Came back from last week's mauling to put in a full 80 today.

Quote:

Longers
I suppose all one can say is that was one of those "What might have been" games.

Yet again you mean !!!
We seem to be a "what might have been" club to be honest.

Amazing, how we played so poorly yet almost won. We butchered two huge opportunities. Those opportunities could have made the difference.

Our usual poor start meant we were planning catch up.

Sone excellent performances but a couple of poor ones too.

Not many scrums this week, but we didn’t do too badly for the few there were.

Feels like de ja Vue from 1st part of last season.. Think the last 20mins will be a corner turned. Front row was excellent after 1st scrum just a bit of the rub and we would have won despite the mistakes. Onwards and upwards.. Come on you Saints!!

Quote:

fleetg

Quote:

Longers
I suppose all one can say is that was one of those "What might have been" games.

Yet again you mean !!!
We seem to be a "what might have been" club to be honest.

I got told off earlier in the week for being negative, so I thought I would try positive!

It's two bonus points more than we had from the match last season. I can just about take performances like this one as long as there is light at the end of the tunnel and somehow we actually come away with more of a 'prize' than last season. And, of course, that we start to have fewer and fewer minutes of such performances. Pleased that we kept going and going such that we could have come away with all 5 points.

So frustrating as that game was there for the taking, but 2 points away to quins isn't a bad result. I think we just need to show a bit more patience and 'suck' the defence in first, when we go wide we look unstoppable but need to earn the right to play first.
On another day that would have been a win and if we can play like that against Wasps next weekend then should be good for a win hopefully!

Well played the forwards, and in particular Manny ,it shows real character to come back from last week’s mauling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:02:17:18:34 by Pagel best ever.

I honestly thought Lewis did score the try that was disallowed. But I’m not the ref. So many handling errors but I think it showed real grit to almost snatch it.

In my opinion
Taking 2 points away at Quins while knowing we had so much opportunity that we should have won doesn’t leave too much despondency

Tommy F reminding me more and more of Ben Cohen in his prime
So dangerous at first receiver

Quote:

Longers

Quote:

rugbymel
.... The scrum did hold up though....

And hats off to Manny Iyogun. Came back from last week's mauling to put in a full 80 today.

And seemed to get better as the match went on!

No idea why so many errors in the first half, but reading some of the comments above I'm surprised by how little confidence some of the posters have.

Error count an issue. We butchered at least 4 chances as well as a disallowed try. How many chances did Quins waste?

Santiago - the problem is that it’s the same old issues season after season……

I might give James a start next week

Quote:

Aberavon Wizard
Santiago - the problem is that it’s the same old issues season after season……
I might give James a start next week

Funny you should say that......

I’ve just had the club email a two for one offer on lucky socks

Quote:

Aberavon Wizard
Santiago - the problem is that it’s the same old issues season after season……

Yep.

I'm looking forward to finding out what new learnings there will be this week.

Quote:

shiversaint
Carley as incompetent as ever.

Foley ?

Yeah Tom Foley & I think he was ok

Quote:

BerniesBestFriend
Yeah Tom Foley & I think he was ok

His best showing for a fair few matches, I thought.

Oh I was just idly thinking about Carley while trying to avoid those @#$%& poor handling skills.

Once again, for about the 31st time, we cannot execute that sort of game plan reliably with our overall skill level being so low. It was true with Boyd and it’s true now.

What a wasted opportunity. Not like Quins were poor either.

Good watch as a neutral. I really thought you were going to snatch it in the last minutes.
Mitchell is a bit of an enigma. How can he be so terrible and so great in one game?

Marker needs to keep his nose out when Lewis is speaking to the referee. Totally provoking the situation by getting between Lewis and the ref. Total clown !

Thought there were a couple of decisions 50/59 didn’t go our w but overall though Foley was pretty good. I think it was 16 handling errors which probably sums it up. Couldn’t build momentum because we kept dropping the bloody ball, a horrible rainy night and I may have had some sympathy, no excuses to drop that many in this day and age. I’d be p’d off dropping the shiny mitre ball in the rain that many times back in the day

Quote:

OldMarovian
Mitchell is a bit of an enigma. How can he be so terrible and so great in one game?

He is the epitome of Northampton Saints !

Thought Foley was pretty good tbh - way better than Dicko last week. Two points is not too bad an outcome, playing as poorly as we did in places, with our handling so poor.
There's been relatively less comment on here about defence. We've already conceded try bonus points in 3/4 prem games. Obviously we play an expansive game which typically makes us more vulnerable defensively but, as with a lot of games last season and several this season already, we did not make the opposition work hard for their points. It has to improve

Just caught up with the game. Basically shot ourselves in the foot continually. We are far too easy to score against. Really disappointed that so many handling errors were again evident. One positive was a scrums were vastly better than last week. Still we find it difficult to beat the best teams. Disappointed.

When you gift a team a 14 point head start, it’s always going to be uphill.

I disagree with Dowson’s interview that we are not consistent, we are consistently bad a not winning against top 4 sides..

Our so called leaders need to step up, and as a team stop conceding soft scores!

We also need to be more pro-active at the breakdown!

But don’t worry mid table sides are coming up, we’ll be fine!

To a certain extent the way we play is always going to be higher risk reward than others and I'm fine with that to an extent - however it does mean basic skills need to be absolutely on point which they aren't for chunks of games.

Yes the best teams make their own luck but a few things were very marginal - that slight tap on Dingwall's arm that led to a Quins try, if the defender (who looked class all day) doesn't make that then the wide pass is away and we've exploited the space wide very well, potentially scoring ourselves.

As for Marler we know what's coming, certainly Ludlam as an England team mate does! I thought we were right on the margin a couple of times in terms of speaking with the ref, another may have marched us back once or twice.

Having missed the game yesterday I have now watched it, I rarely watch a match back if I know the result but from the comments it very much sounded like we were trying to find as many ways as possible not to score.

My take from it....

Spend half the week hurling soapy balls at each other until you catch it 99% of the time

Spend the other half of the week with an opposition player in front of you and two team mates next to you, get them to communicate loudly and clearly that they are there and pass the ball (preferably soapy)

That's everything sorted, win every match from here on in and everyones happy.

I thought Lukhan was particularly unfortunate. Evans (I think is was) didn’t have the ball and neither player was attempting to tackle, it was a collision in which both players made shoulder to head contact, and share the blame for their part in bringing it about. Both could have been yellow carded in fact and I think it was a pity for the game that Lukhan was.
None the less we were profligate and squandered too many opportunities whilst allowing Quins to benefit from the few that they had. A great game for the neutral and Quins will feel that perhaps they dodged a bullet given that we had the lions share of the play and created so many opportunities.
So we move on, frustrated yet optimistic that one day we will click and won’t look back.

I think this game kind of summed up the last few seasons (excepting our late run to the playoffs). We have talent to score, no doubts, but are somehow missing something which prevents Saints from getting over the hump to be a consistent top quality team. Not sure what it is because sometimes we look great and other times struggling.

Quote:

Saint Gordo
I think this game kind of summed up the last few seasons (excepting our late run to the playoffs). We have talent to score, no doubts, but are somehow missing something which prevents Saints from getting over the hump to be a consistent top quality team. Not sure what it is because sometimes we look great and other times struggling.

Saints have apparently tolerated broadly the same people making the same mistakes for a long time. One or two seem to feature on that list for a year or more.

Until we gain the hard edge - throughout the club - we will carry on seeing games like we did on Sunday.

I do wonder whether it is financial. I have asked before, but cannot recall the response - Do we have a specific skills coach? Or can we not afford it?

We will see the "We got top four last season playing like this" comments. And some will be happy with top six. I'm looking at the performances.

Watching Sarries on Saturday made it rather worse! They showed what can be done. With solid coaching.

I dont know about a skills coach.

The missing elemnts seem to be basic stuff

Catching the ball
Not looking away before you have the ball in your hands
Protecting the ball when entering contact
Not trying the hail mary pass when the obvious thing to do is go to ground and recycle

Take personal responsibility and do the job you are paid to do.

‘The Hard Edge’…..yes, that’s an interesting one and a subject that invariably gets touched upon every season when Saints come up short challenging for the top spots in the pecking order. Imho it’s as much a Club issue as it is a problem with players and coaches.

Would we want a sugar daddy owner happy to input untold millions to satisfy his personal vanity; I can think of two in the West Country where pure money has not lead to sustained success. Would we want to stretch the rules to breaking point and beyond and then tell the world it’s not fair when we get caught out ? Would we want to have a completely flawed business model or get taken over by a couple of chancers who took us to the brink of oblivion ? I guess the answer to the above questions would be a resounding no on all counts from most of us at least.

Could we still admire the sheer professionalism that Mark McCall installs into his squad - yes ?
Could we learn to occasionally adopt the pragmatism of Steve Borthwick - possibly.
Could we make The Gardens a more uncomfortable place for teams to visit…rather like Kingsholm ?
Could we do more to fill our stadium by targeting Schools and Colleges ?
Could the team learn how to ‘play the referee’ rather more effectively ?
Could we look for the outside overlap rather than adopting ‘white line fever’ ?
Could we actually play eighty minutes rather than forty ?
Could we be far more ruthless at the breakdown and develop an effective rolling maul ?
Could we stop kicking the ball back to the opposition, though here we are far from the worst ?
Could we stop dropping the ball in contact quite so often ?

Personally, I don’t think we are too far away from being a very good side though having a front row that is forever ‘work in progress’ will not help, although I thought they stood up pretty well against Quins after the first ten minutes. The reaction to the result at The Stoop will be interesting next weekend.

Quote:

Aberavon Wizard
‘The Hard Edge’…..yes, that’s an interesting one....Imho it’s as much a Club issue as it is a problem with players and coaches.......

I think that is the root.

And I don't think we would need a sugar daddy to supply that. It's a mental thing. Totally. Almost every point you raise comes down to basic mentality - to coin the current buzzword on one professional business forum "Culture".

Nor do we need to "stretch the rules".

Just make things very clear to one or two players - if we all sat down and wrote a list, they would be broadly the same - that we are not going to accept the negative aspects of their game we see week in week out.

I would include their coaching team as well.

We did stand up to Quins quite well after that first ten minutes. But I would be asking Ian Vass why we are still so slow to get back into position -
After a tackle
After the whistle goes for a penalty to the opposition(!)
Why we have such a problem out wide. Why do we consistently fail to trust the man covering across.

Still we have plenty to work on!

Hard edge is an interesting one, and I totally agree we are missing it.

All the best teams have had it, they've all had leaders who insist on the best and don't appear to take second best, these are guys who push the boundaries to get the extra few percent to beat the opposition. Our most successful captain in the modern era pushed boundaries and got results. His generals, Wood and Dowson did the same, anyone remember Dowson loosing it with the hooker (can't remember if it was Heywood or Sharman) for a mistake at the lineout.

Who's taking the players to task when they make the same mistake, I'm not saying it needs to be a public flogging, but at the minute I can't see anyone getting into these guys and taking nothing less than the best, if the attitude is, you made a mistake, now learn from it, but the mistake keeps being made, it clearly isn't working, go back to the old school mentality (I know that's generally frowned upon these days but sometimes hard love is the only answer).

Are we missing a psycho in the team, the type of guy that stands there in the depths of winter, socks round his ankles and ear only held on by a bit of tape, the guy people are 'scared' of but you know damn well he'll have your back.

Quote:

Saint Ted
Hard edge is an interesting one, and I totally agree we are missing it.
……….

Are we missing a psycho in the team, the type of guy that stands there in the depths of winter, socks round his ankles and ear only held on by a bit of tape, the guy people are 'scared' of but you know damn well he'll have your back.

I agree and have argued for a long while that we are lacking a hard edge. Perhaps some of Dan Biggars angst would be directed at his own side rather than at the ref? I am sure he commands the respect of the team, and whilst not “ nasty” in the old fashioned way , certainly gives no quarter.

Quote:

Saint Ted
Hard edge is an interesting one, and I totally agree we are missing it.
All the best teams have had it, they've all had leaders who insist on the best and don't appear to take second best, these are guys who push the boundaries to get the extra few percent to beat the opposition. Our most successful captain in the modern era pushed boundaries and got results. His generals, Wood and Dowson did the same, anyone remember Dowson loosing it with the hooker (can't remember if it was Heywood or Sharman) for a mistake at the lineout.

Who's taking the players to task when they make the same mistake, I'm not saying it needs to be a public flogging, but at the minute I can't see anyone getting into these guys and taking nothing less than the best, if the attitude is, you made a mistake, now learn from it, but the mistake keeps being made, it clearly isn't working, go back to the old school mentality (I know that's generally frowned upon these days but sometimes hard love is the only answer).

Are we missing a psycho in the team, the type of guy that stands there in the depths of winter, socks round his ankles and ear only held on by a bit of tape, the guy people are 'scared' of but you know damn well he'll have your back.

Well said that man.

Quote:

Saint Ted
Are we missing a psycho in the team, the type of guy that stands there in the depths of winter, socks round his ankles and ear only held on by a bit of tape, the guy people are 'scared' of but you know damn well he'll have your back.

Since Wood retired yes. Perhaps not the last season or so but before that he was absolutely that person for Saints IMO. Someone your team don't want to let down, is hard as nails and is respected by the opposition.