Saints v Exeter 4th November 2022 - Teams Up

What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:11:10:09:16:06 by Saint Ted.

Clearly the management have been reading the board and given James the starting spot and Mitch off the bench! Two decent teams given the much discussed absentees, I think we edge the bench however and I think that Exe will have their hands full in midfield if Dingers and Hutch play well, especially if Tommy does a few of his trademark ghostings into the line (Furbs too actually). As ever there will be a tough time against Ewers and Vermulen in the back row but our three don’t look too shabby on current form.

I think we do a lot more than edge the bench. Mitchell, Furbank and Proctor coming on is very strong. And our forward reserves are solid near first team players, apart from Silvester.

Exeter have a lot of inexperience on that bench, and starting (Dan John, Lewis Pearson). And weirdly, seem to have 2 young scrum halves on the bench - Maunder and Becconsall.

That's not to say it will be easy. The Exeter front row, Ewers and Vermeulen will have a lot to say. But our bench could be a real differentiator.

Quote:

Londonsaint
I think we do a lot more than edge the bench. Mitchell, Furbank and Proctor coming on is very strong. And our forward reserves are solid near first team players, apart from Silvester.
Exeter have a lot of inexperience on that bench, and starting (Dan John, Lewis Pearson). And weirdly, seem to have 2 young scrum halves on the bench - Maunder and Becconsall.

That's not to say it will be easy. The Exeter front row, Ewers and Vermeulen will have a lot to say. But our bench could be a real differentiator.

Becconsall is normally playing at 10 for us. At least in part due to the number of injuries we have there (only Joe Simmonds is fit/available at present).

Most of us are expecting a Northampton win. Injuries and international call ups have left us very thin in certain positions. This isn't an excuse, simply a fact. About one third of the team are first choice players in their correct positions. Seven of the starters wouldn't be in a full strength match day XXIII.

Top bugler at the gardens, crowd very respectful, very nice to see. BT giving us kudos for respecting club history!

Top bugling sir..

This 3 or 4 man caterpillar is complete nonsense, really does need a law change to either outlaw it in some way or make the scrum half play it quicker to stop teams having time to form it

Agreed.

Solid start. Tommy needs to get the rust off but overall we've set a good intensity.

Smith seems great from the tee as well.

They do like to run screen runners very close to pass and defender, bordering illegal

Some teams get a lot of latitude from refs, Chiefs are one

Much much better defensive intensity, we're suffocating them in the middle of the park with our line speed and dealing with thier resultant box kicks. Just have to keep them away from the 5m pick and drive because we're winning most of the other battles.

Overall a very good half.

Quote:

Walks11
Some teams get a lot of latitude from refs, Chiefs are one

Maxwell-Keyes has been hands off for both teams which is refreshing IMO.

Helpful to know that charging into rucks with no control and striking the head/neck area of a jackling player is now “play-on” and indeed a “good clear out” per the commentary team. Hope Ollie recovers quickly.

Quote:

FommyTreeman
Helpful to know that charging into rucks with no control and striking the head/neck area of a jackling player is now “play-on” and indeed a “good clear out” per the commentary team. Hope Ollie recovers quickly.

He contradicted himself and then admitted he contradicted himself, no wrap is surely dangerous., fortunate I’d say.

Yea challenge was all good yet Ollie has failed a HIA so must have been head contact. puzzled.
Chiefs regularly offside and off their feet at rucks.

Quote:

Walks11
This 3 or 4 man caterpillar is complete nonsense, really does need a law change to either outlaw it in some way or make the scrum half play it quicker to stop teams having time to form it

I don't have a problem with it as long as the ref calls "use it" as soon as the ball is available.... a lot of Refs (CMK being a very pertinent case in point tonight) only call it once the caterpillar has formed and the ball is at the back. Where Luke Pearce when you need him?

Indeed. “No control” is probably unfair from a proper look at the replays but even under control, contacting neck/ head is clearly highly dangerous at speed. I appreciate the argument about there being nowhere to contest the turnover, but that doesn’t mean it’s legal or safe.

Quote:

TheGent

Quote:

Walks11
Some teams get a lot of latitude from refs, Chiefs are one

Maxwell-Keyes has been hands off for both teams which is refreshing IMO.

Just wish he’d not wait a ridiculous amount of time to form the caterpillar before asking the SH to play it. And try and keep players on feet at ruck time. They are masters of sealing off, virtually impossible to defend

We have the beating of them, keep discipline and play in right areas, think we have more tries in us

Quote:

SaintsDuncan

Quote:

Walks11
This 3 or 4 man caterpillar is complete nonsense, really does need a law change to either outlaw it in some way or make the scrum half play it quicker to stop teams having time to form it

I don't have a problem with it as long as the ref calls "use it" as soon as the ball is available.... a lot of Refs (CMK being a very pertinent case in point tonight) only call it once the caterpillar has formed and the ball is at the back. Where Luke Pearce when you need him?

As soon as ball is won call it, the attacking team wouldn’t have time to get 3 in position and it goes away to a large degree.

Yellow card.. really was an obvious one and not even considered, I despair

Great stint by James.

Quote:

FommyTreeman
Indeed. “No control” is probably unfair from a proper look at the replays but even under control, contacting neck/ head is clearly highly dangerous at speed. I appreciate the argument about there being nowhere to contest the turnover, but that doesn’t mean it’s legal or safe.

Same ref that presided over the debacle at the end of the Quins v Irish match last week - even though the TMO was the main culprit there he has to take a lot of the responsibility for that too, especially not stopping the match immediately when the Irish player smacked his head on the ground ...

And there you go, stone cold yellow not given and we then get one

Straight off their feet right under refs nose, nothing

Why throw to the back on your own line?

Refs been fine. We were lucky not to get a red for head on head.

Need to maintain composure and retake momentum.

Quote:

TheGent
Refs been fine. We were lucky not to get a red for head on head.
Need to maintain composure and retake momentum.

So he got that wrong, he got Woodburn clear out wrong and he got Dunn yellow card wrong.. apart from that though?

5M lineout falling apart again as usual

Finn Geraghty!

Quote:

Walks11

Quote:

TheGent
Refs been fine. We were lucky not to get a red for head on head.
Need to maintain composure and retake momentum.

So he got that wrong, he got Woodburn clear out wrong and he got Dunn yellow card wrong.. apart from that though?

Ref's decisions have balanced out but much easier for some to always blame the ref rather than the last 2 lost line outs and an needless intercept.

Again we need to maintain composure.

Get in Tommy!

Quote:

TheGent

Quote:

Walks11

Quote:

TheGent
Refs been fine. We were lucky not to get a red for head on head.
Need to maintain composure and retake momentum.

So he got that wrong, he got Woodburn clear out wrong and he got Dunn yellow card wrong.. apart from that though?

Ref's decisions have balanced out but much easier for some to always blame the ref rather than the last 2 lost line outs and an needless intercept.

Again we need to maintain composure.

Not sure I ever blamed the ref, just don’t think he’s having a good game or indeed is a very good ref. Just want a fair crack from them and we seem to get rough end of 50/50,s. As my post above said “5M lineout falling apart again” so I agree where our problems lie

Hopefully that’s just cramp, he’s had another decent game has young Smith

Very good win, Finn Smith is a breath of fresh air and big game from Salakaia-Loto especially.

Much better defensively, just need to cut out the mistakes and we look a good side.

Very good win, discipline and defence much better, lineout issues still remain near line, half backs good, thought Tom James had a good half and a bit. Our Aussie 2nd row Lukhan is really starting to stand out, great signing

That has to be our most disciplined performances for a long time.

Quote:

Walks11
Hopefully that’s just cramp, he’s had another decent game has young Smith

Confirmed in his interview after the game that it was just cramp.

Quote:

ajack
That has to be our most disciplined performances for a long time.

Totally agree, whilst not the free scoring spectacle we've become used to, I thought that game was one of the best we've played in a long time

Quote:

Walks11
5M lineout falling apart again as usual

As clear a penalty to Saints as I have ever seen. Jumped straight across the line out and landed on our side.

Well played and congrats on the win.
Scrappy game, I’d have taken a LBP before KO so guess I should be happy but I’m far from it…….we are poor and in truth you should have buried us tonight

Quote:

SaintsAsh

Quote:

Walks11
5M lineout falling apart again as usual

As clear a penalty to Saints as I have ever seen. Jumped straight across the line out and landed on our side.

Twice

At last we keep the score board moving rather than go for speculative line outs that we fail to convert. Well done a good win

so why/how did we screw up 3 lines out in a row?

I thought the third one (where it was goal or territory) was clearly a case of we can't screw up 3 in a row can we - and then we did.

At some point I saw some stats that said how great our line out is - doh.

Signs of the team maturing I think. Very good performance to adapt our style play to suit the conditions and deal with the opposition. Very pleasing result, well done guys.

We were without Coles,Ribbans,Lawes, and it was a mixture of throwing and lifting that was off. Good at the breakdown for a change, listen to Fin Smith in his MOM interview explaining the change of tactics for this match, lots of kicking etc.

We all know how good Freeman is, and showed in summer he a natural international, I see him pulled into England squad for at least last 2 hardest games.

Loto is a class signing!

Imagine if Augustus was fit, we missed his ball carrying…. Then add Cole’s, Ribban, Lawes, Ludlam, we had half our pack missing!

Mitchell just makes so much difference… Eddie Jones, remove your head from your @#$%&, seriously??? Yes JVP is a good player, N lots of decent you g 9s, but Mitchell is top,of all stats!

And how good is Smith??? 20, looked like he’d been with us for years, such maturity, loved after his interview, he joined the huddle n squeezed someone’s @#$%& to get let in! So comfortable with us… how good will this kid get??? Think we got a real gem on our hands!

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:11:04:22:37:13 by Neil-H.

Agree very handy win without Augustus et al in the pack. Impressive penalty count of only conceding 5! Can’t remember it ever being that low. Exeters was 15 and could have been 25. Line out disappointing but some of the defensive sets were very good. A gritty, gutsy win for this side. Good development.

Alex Moon seems to be growing into the role at 5, carrying, tackling, and hitting rucks as well as his lineout work. He is getting the benefit of a run of games and it is good to see. 👍🏼

When I saw the team I thought that only having one specialist lineout jumper might be a problem. I thought we managed that well, you lose a bit in the air but our back row was all over the place causing havoc.

I'm a little confused... Sleightholme goes off for an HIA but there didn't seem to be any official review.

Play gets stopped for head contact to Maunder?, called by Touchie but he didn't even go off for an HIA and got a thorough investigation.

What do we have to do to get some consistency?

Also, I thought that if a ref/ assistant ref called head injury, it was a straight substitution?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of an individual incident, these TMO interventions are taking too long……..

Quote:

Neil-H
We all know how good Freeman is, and showed in summer he a natural international, I see him pulled into England squad for at least last 2 hardest games.
Loto is a class signing!

Imagine if Augustus was fit, we missed his ball carrying…. Then add Cole’s, Ribban, Lawes, Ludlam, we had half our pack missing!

Mitchell just makes so much difference… Eddie Jones, remove your head from your @#$%&, seriously??? Yes JVP is a good player, N lots of decent you g 9s, but Mitchell is top,of all stats!

And how good is Smith??? 20, looked like he’d been with us for years, such maturity, loved after his interview, he joined the huddle n squeezed someone’s @#$%& to get let in! So comfortable with us… how good will this kid get??? Think we got a real gem on our hands! .

Absolutely agree about Mitchell. He makes Saints go, somewhat different than Cobus, but similar impact on the team. Don't need stats, he aces the eye test. And is probably the most impactful 9 in the Premiership.

[twitter.com]

Is this a ruck?

Couple of things that impressed me

Painter was immense in the scrum
Absolutely destroyed them

Hinckley has made a huge difference to our breakdown play
He was everywhere last night (except for 10min)

We didn’t get turned over once

Lewis will have to earn his shirt when he returns

Lotto is immense

We had a different game plan than play like the Harlem globetrotter and it worked

The forwards put us on the front foot which gave Smith time to play

Not the prettiest game a lot of kicking but I feel more confidence in Saints moving forward than I do when we score 8 tries but let in 6

Overall a good result. Chiefs' defence constantly straying offside made it much harder for us to play as expansively as usual, but it was good to see a different side to our game. Hinckley, Loto and Smith being standout performers for me.

Still plenty to work on - the lineout was very poor in the last 20 mins and some of the kicking from hand could be improved - but it was an encouraging win and a great atmosphere. Tigers is the only loss this season at home, we need to continue to make FG a hard place for opposition sides to come to.

Last night was the first game I have actually enjoyed, for a very long time. Apart from the kick-tennis!

I thought we showed that we had considered how to play the particular opposition we were facing and got down to it. Well!

Many areas appeared to have benefitted from a bit of time on the back pitches.

I do not intend to pick out individuals as it would seem unfair on those omitted. Except Craig Maxwell-Keys. He was atrocious. The worst I have seen him ref. I assume he talks to his "assistants"? Off-side seemed to be an option to watch for.

I do wish BT or some other broadcaster would find a referee who is now retired, and construct a programme slot along the lines of that brilliant book from way back "Why the whistle went". Explaining some of the more "curious" decisions the ref, and TMO have made.

Just watched the game on tv. CMK was very poor but as Longers said above there was very little communication to be heard. Often watching games you can hear referees asking for things to be checked in the background or hear a TMO come in with comments such as….neck roll at last breakdown.

Two or three seasons ago., Rugby union officiating and use of replays was envied by other sports. It has gone a long way backwards in the last couple of seasons. If they can’t get the Quins decision right last week, then the clear out on Ollie was never going to be seen. And the decision on Arron could have gone worse or better for us - he definitely made head contact at speed, but he was also put off balance by the Exeter retreating player causing him to fall into the tackle.

The lazy runner was a clear yellow and these are the most obvious high profile incidents without the permanent off side and the line out infringements.

Quote:

rugbymel
https://twitter.com/wherestommyv/status/1588631833780146176?s=61&t=fDkt_QoufsvZnwYt7XO2mQ
Is this a ruck?

Yes

I really don't know what people expect or even hope for with the possible exception of every decision going Saints way.

With regard to the Sleightholme incident it was Saints that took the quick tap and had scored within maybe a second of taking it. Yes the ref could disallowed the try, I am sure that would have gone down well, but it wouldn't have got the player any treatment quicker or put them in a less dangerous position. The incident was clearly reviewed as was the scoring of the try prior to the conversion.

If anything I though our yellow was nearer to a red than this was to a yellow.

Quote:

rugbymel
https://twitter.com/wherestommyv/status/1588631833780146176?s=61&t=fDkt_QoufsvZnwYt7XO2mQ
Is this a ruck?

Slow and painful
However it is in the rules
Ref should endorse the 5 second rule much quicker
Which would stop it

I know. Rhetorical question. But it’s boring and tedious and sucks the life out of the game. Someone on Twitter. said that the scrum half took 9 seconds to clear the ball. So yes, ref should be stricter but the ruck should be called over if the ball is available and the defensive team have completely disengaged.

Have Exeter replaced Sarries as the most boring team?

I see we made 27 missed tackles, we were turned over 9 times but did make 12 of our own.
only 98 passes, think we normally make well over 150? Only 281 m gained compared with Exeter's 436.
42 % possession and only 39% territory.

Sounds from the statistics we did well to win?

As ever some of those stats look highly suspect.

Quote:

ajack
I really don't know what people expect or even hope for with the possible exception of every decision going Saints way.
With regard to the Sleightholme incident it was Saints that took the quick tap and had scored within maybe a second of taking it. Yes the ref could disallowed the try, I am sure that would have gone down well, but it wouldn't have got the player any treatment quicker or put them in a less dangerous position. The incident was clearly reviewed as was the scoring of the try prior to the conversion.

If anything I though our yellow was nearer to a red than this was to a yellow.

I wasn’t trying to suggest Saints were hard done by in anyway, my point is that I think the overall standard of refereeing and Tmo has declined and there are now some very poor decisions. I said that Hinckley’s card could have been worse but the analysis by the TMO and C M K was not measured like for instance Wayne Barnes. Equally there seemed to be limited communication between the officiating team.

I think the potential red card decisions cancelled themselves out. But In live play I thought Exeter were offside a lot. Upon rewinding the footage I saw that they are blatantly offside a lot. I don't expect every decision to go our way, but if you are really really offside, I expect it to be called. If you get in the way having never been onside and your opponent only needs to make two simple passes to score, then you would expect to receive a yellow. BTW, I thought we got away with a few decisions as well.

Precisely Saint Ash, lots of wrong decisions. even big ones when tv pictures were used.

There will always be 50/50 calls that means Refs will have critics, but it’s the really obvious errors that I thought tv replays were brought in to eradicate.

Quote:

Push Over
Precisely Saint Ash, lots of wrong decisions. even big ones when tv pictures were used.
There will always be 50/50 calls that means Refs will have critics, but it’s the really obvious errors that I thought tv replays were brought in to eradicate.

Which "big ones" when tv pictures were wrong exactly? Yes on a different day with a different red we could have had a red and they could have had a yellow, but were either really blatantly wrong and what others were.

Yes they were offside a good few times sometimes they got pinged sometimes they didn't the same will apply to knock ons not driving square at the scrum, forward passes. But I real fail to see any really poor decisions from the game.

Ajack…I am not solely talking about this game, I commented upon the poor decisions last week also.

You obviously want to pick some sort of argument which I have seen happen over the years previously. I am not joining in.

Enjoy.

Not picking some sort of arguement at all. I simply have a different point of view to you and try and back it up with facts and reasons why I think what I do.
I actually thought that was the main reason for a forum like this to discuss things and give our points of view as well as giving information.
Not really sure why anyone would post on a forum like this if they feel anyone who has a different point of view to them is trying to pick an arguement?

A lot of points have been made but one that hasn't been mentioned is how often and well Skosan took catches in tight situations - deserves a positive mention in case he goes off the boil.

There were two particular positives from the game for me.

Hats off to the coaches. They identified a gameplan to nullify the big Exeter pack and it worked by not playing into Exeter’s hands running the ball back from long kicks and taking kicks for goal to keep the scoreboard ticking over. Tactically smart.

Fin Smith has settled in well and impressed. Particularly his place kicking. Very assured for a 20 year old. Hopefully his leg is nothing serious.

The contentious referee calls for foul play could be simplified in my view. Head injury results in an automatic HIA assessment off the field and an on field review by the principal match official. Unlikely this would be time consuming as generally the player is being treated by medical staff. This takes away a critical decision from the TMO, of course refs could quite easily do this now, but last 2 weeks has shown the Maxwell Keys in this example left critical decisions to the opinion of the TMO rather than taking responsibility himself. TMO is really there to advise on anything missed and to provide clarification on line calls, not to make decisions

Quote:

Saint Maul
There were two particular positives from the game for me.
Hats off to the coaches. They identified a gameplan to nullify the big Exeter pack and it worked by not playing into Exeter’s hands running the ball back from long kicks and taking kicks for goal to keep the scoreboard ticking over. Tactically smart.

Fin Smith has settled in well and impressed. Particularly his place kicking. Very assured for a 20 year old. Hopefully his leg is nothing serious.

Totally agree with both points as I said earlier it was our most disciplined performance for a long while.

For anyone watching Saints with no knowledge of either Smith or Biggar I doubt they would pick them as the Lion and the 20 year old inexperienced youngster. To me there was no drop off in anything, defence, tactical kicking, place kicking or game management if anything an improvement in penalties conceded.

That brings up the stand out part for me, to give away only five penalties against a side that play a lot with the ball and grind teams down and build thier game on winning penalties is nothing short of amazing. Add to that the fact we actually picked our fights and actually turned over a fair bit of their ball makes it even more impressive.

We actually looked like a team with a plan that was coached to play that way.

Quote:

ajack

Quote:

Saint Maul
There were two particular positives from the game for me.
Hats off to the coaches. They identified a gameplan to nullify the big Exeter pack and it worked by not playing into Exeter’s hands running the ball back from long kicks and taking kicks for goal to keep the scoreboard ticking over. Tactically smart.

Fin Smith has settled in well and impressed. Particularly his place kicking. Very assured for a 20 year old. Hopefully his leg is nothing serious.

Totally agree with both points as I said earlier it was our most disciplined performance for a long while.

For anyone watching Saints with no knowledge of either Smith or Biggar I doubt they would pick them as the Lion and the 20 year old inexperienced youngster. To me there was no drop off in anything, defence, tactical kicking, place kicking or game management if anything an improvement in penalties conceded.

That brings up the stand out part for me, to give away only five penalties against a side that play a lot with the ball and grind teams down and build thier game on winning penalties is nothing short of amazing. Add to that the fact we actually picked our fights and actually turned over a fair bit of their ball makes it even more impressive.

We actually looked like a team with a plan that was coached to play that way.

Absolutely. +1