Saints v Gloucester Match Thread 03/12/22 - Teams Up

What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:08:08:44:13 by Saint Ted.

Nice strong team, but Gloucester have a strong side too. Should be a belter of a game, they’re desperate for a win. We should be feeling confident with the internationals back and Luds leading from the front. I like the look of our bench too! Pleased to see they’re without Tuisui, Reid and Hastings mind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:02:13:01:18 by Sir Hector.

With a Saints Gloucester game it will all come down to who wants to throw away a good performance the most. Both teams are very capable of shooting themselves in the foot. I think we have the advantage right now as although we have had a couple of poor results mostly we are playing very well and scoring for fun. Defence is optional but when we do turn it on we look very solid. Perhaps we can do it for 80 mins.

Strong team but a little surprised that either Tom C or Courtnall were not selected for speed on the wing to counter Rees?

Pound to a penny LRZ scores a try…….that’s a strong Glaws side…..!

Four of the Glos side are from the Wuss acadamy ( thats more than Bat ) and Smith for you.

I believe we will miss Hinckley from the 23. The defence and attack is always better when he is in the team and my recollection is that Ludlow generally outplays Ludlum at the breakdown where I consider Hinckley excels. I hope I am proved wrong.

I also thought Hinckley would be involved. But I do think our back 5 edges it and would take out backs over theirs as a collective. That being said would probably take their props over ours. And it is panto season at the shed, let's hope Tempest doesn't cave in.

6 forwards on the bench. Important to have big and fresh men to counter the Glos mauling near the end of the game.
The 6:2 split rules out the option of a full back or winger on the bench. Tough on both Collins and Skosan, but horses for courses I think.

Strangely Tempest's stats suggest that he favours the away side more than any other ref. We'll see.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:02:18:21:21 by twsaint.

I'd also have liked to see Hinkley involved somewhere today. I'm generally a fan of having players go up against their former clubs; it often seems to give them an extra bit of bite.

I’ve just seen a stat that we are ranked 11th (last) in virtually everything you can think of to do with defending. Tries conceded, metres conceded, missed tackles etc etc etc. I don’t like advocating people losing their job, but perhaps Mr. Vass needs some help from somewhere.

Real lack of patience in the red zone.

Well poor defence for first try and a forward pass. Not sure that’s Vass faults mind you plenty of players in the line and they failed to make tackle.

Good response though, lovely mini break from Hill to set it up

Need to be at least 20 points ahead at half time

Not sure where 12 and 13 where on both their tries

How many 5M set pieces do we screw up, ridiculous. Quick hook to 8, doesn’t need to be held

Oof, not good for Singleton.
A distinct lack of replays, suggesting a nasty injury - hopefully not too bad.

Everything we are doing wrong begins with mistakes by Saints which then lead to pressure and points for Glaws.

Need to do the basics better than we have to date.

Everything that is good and bad about Saints summed up in the first half.

Be very tempted to bring Procter on
Out of interest who is our defensive leader in the backs

As has been said we either need a new defence coach or centres that have some idea of how to defend When attacking we look classy and when defending midfield,woeful .Very frustrating!

Two good tries scored but let down by impatience and a little porosity in defence.

Knock on by Johnny May?

Twice as many tackles missed as Gloucester.

Well the first half defensive frailties are not down to Vass. Mitchell hands on failing to make tackle for first and they have waltzed through the defensive back line for 2 & 3. Plenty of players and just not taking responsibility to make the tackle.

Quote:

Walks11
Well the first half defensive frailties are not down to Vass. Mitchell hands on failing to make tackle for first and they have waltzed through the defensive back line for 2 & 3. Plenty of players and just not taking responsibility to make the tackle.

I wonder if Vass left and we brought in Shaun Edwards
Would it make a difference?

If LR-Z wasn’t forward how on earth is that forward??!!

Quote:

Deesaint

Quote:

Walks11
Well the first half defensive frailties are not down to Vass. Mitchell hands on failing to make tackle for first and they have waltzed through the defensive back line for 2 & 3. Plenty of players and just not taking responsibility to make the tackle.

I wonder if Vass left and we brought in Shaun Edwards
Would it make a difference?

I think there some defensive problems that could be attributed to Vass, but certainly tonight it’s the players in my view not Vass that’s the problem this evening. Think we are quick on here to attribute every try conceded to Vass

I have stopped watching. Could not make the game and we could still win, but unwatchable with the ref display. Not excuses just so ridiculous it is unwatchable.

Only watched since half time. But very frustrating, refereeing and our own performance

Quote:

SaintsAsh
I have stopped watching. Could not make the game and we could still win, but unwatchable with the ref display. Not excuses just so ridiculous it is unwatchable.

Consistency would be nice

Looks men against boys physically here. Is that just this half or a pattern of the game?

Let’s not make excuses by blaming the ref

First time in our 22 this half and they score

Quote:

Walks11
Well the first half defensive frailties are not down to Vass. Mitchell hands on failing to make tackle for first and they have waltzed through the defensive back line for 2 & 3. Plenty of players and just not taking responsibility to make the tackle.

Said this for a while. Defense coaches implement systems that can help but it relies on blokes wanting to make hits to execute actual tackles. A lot of tries we concede are missed tackles as opposed to system faults imho. We are imploding here

Another yellow, another try and another game thrown away through indiscipline, not doing the basics well and tackling is atrocious.
Tempest is so inconsistent it’s laughable, interpretation of some of the rules definately not consistent for both teams nor with other refs.

Tempest is always poor but not the reason why we are so poor defensively,
Worst team in the league defensively = Vass to go. He has had time, zero improvement.

It’s laughable how predictable it is watching saints.

Going forward is nice to watch, some good tries but not clinical still.

Just a soft club. If sitting at the bottom of all the defensive tables is not enough justification for some in regards to us finding a new defensive coach I don’t know what ever will be.

We are not an intelligent team.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:03:19:10:41 by Berkshire-Saint.

Need to take Mitchell off. He's kicking away so much hard won possession giving Gloss chances to stretch their lead. Brainless!

Missed Hinckley at the breakdown

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint
Tempest is always poor but not the reason why we are so poor defensively,
Worst team in the league defensively = Vass to go. He has had time, zero improvement.

It’s laughable how predictable it is watching saints.

Going forward is nice to watch, some good tries but not clinical still.

Just a soft club. If sitting at the bottom of all the defensive tables is not enough justification for some in regards to us finding a new defensive coach I don’t know what ever will be.

We are not an intelligent team.

Bingo!.. took a while but we got there

Who has outplayed their direct opposite number? I can’t think of anyone who has clearly played better.

Please, please, please - can we just try and tackle - sometimes?
It really doesn't matter how good or how bad our defence coach is - if the players can't or won't tackle we're going to lose game after game like this!

There are some poor refs about right now but tonight is most definitely not down the the officiating

For all those asking why Mitchell didn't get any game time during the internationals the answers are very obvious today.

Didn't Dowson make a big thing about not being pinged for chat this season at the forum? Well even that's gone now...

It's interesting. Our attack again failed dramatically in the first half if that had stuck we'd have been well ahead and Gloucester who had lost three on the bounce would have been thinking 'not again'... But we didn't so they didn't.

We often hear that we can't question their effort but I think we can. I look at other teams when they defend and the intent is palpable. We often look passive.

It is so frustrating.

The annoying this is that as poor as we were tonight it was still there for the taking if we had taken our opportunities. We are a way off, scrum not good enough, discipline, one on one tackling, attacking lineout, unforced errors

Scrum and defence coaches both need to be spoken to.

In terms of improvement or.......

Sorry this is not 'high risk, high reward rugby . Just a team that are unable to defend. FULL STOP

Do players have pressure and expectations to perform and put their body on the line
Or are we even more like a low pressure social club
Where a slap on the back and a kind word is offered

We have La Rochelle as well as Munster both home and away
Quins in between
Followed by Exeter and Tigers away

Might be a barren few months

We really need some steel in our coaching

if Vass has any dignity he needs to resign now, just look at the stats, we are Championship level in everything defensive, nobody has the balls at the club to do anything about it though, as long as we are paying our season tickets and buying beers and merch nothing will chance, directors need to show some ambition,

Matevesi has a shocker - back up, a rookie.
Paul Hill cannot keep his feet - back up a rookie.
Gloucester are a big side, always have been- need to seriously front up.
Yes, mistakes in a single game can be down to players having an off day but we concede more tries than any other team - that is never going to put you in the top four. Week in week out it’s the same - something has to change in the coaching department,
Penalty just before half time - team want to go for the corner and the kicking tee is brought on - let the Captain decide ! Penalty missed, impetus gone.

Next three games - European Champions away, our old nemesis Munster at home and then Quins and Wunderkind on New Years Day……..tough times ?

Hey,
It looks like Eddie Jones will be available in a week or so.....

Quote:

Saint Gordo
Hey,
It looks like Eddie Jones will be available in a week or so.....

Or Conner O’Shea 🤣

So another season slips by?

Quote:

Longers
Scrum and defence coaches both need to be spoken to.
In terms of improvement or.......

Not sure what anyone could do with a frontrow of Waller, Sam and Hill...
We are hardly blessed with quality in our frontrow and that has been the case for a number of years. Ferguson would need to be a mircle worker.

I’ll give you once guess what these stats are for……
Bedford Fr 4
Ospreys F 4
Sale 4
Irish 3
Leicester 6
Irish PRC 4
Quins 5
Saracens PRC 6
Wasps 5
Quins PRC 5
Newcastle 5
Bath 3
Bristol 5
Exeter 3
Saracens 6
Newcastle PRC 4
Barbarians Fr 7
Gloucester 4

After some 50 plus years of watching the saints, I am really down after tonight's performance and Im used to ups and downs following Saints.
We are currently an ill disciplined lightweight team capable of some thrilling attacking rugby but
defensively so very poor. We need a complete new front row and a more powerful defensive centre.
We are nowhere near top 4 or 6 and will be dropping down the league at a rate of knots now given the run of games we now face.
At least I got my AGM voting papers today but nothing worthwhile to vote on in the agenda.
Seriously thinking of not renewing for next season.

The number of times AM kicked possession away in the last 10 minutes

Quote:

Saints Advocate

Quote:

Longers
Scrum and defence coaches both need to be spoken to.
In terms of improvement or.......

Not sure what anyone could do with a frontrow of Waller, Sam and Hill...
We are hardly blessed with quality in our frontrow and that has been the case for a number of years. Ferguson would need to be a mircle worker.

Except that I would expect him to be leading the outlining of any specification for signings, or contract extensions, and so forth. And I agree that we have not had quality in the FR for several seasons. But either he can work with what he has or he should be telling Dowson (Boyd also) he cannot turn a sows ear into a silk purse.

On the SSC bus on the way home, for those watching at home it was fast worse being there, yes Mr Chris another season is slipping by 😔

X



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:03:21:10:58 by Aberavon Wizard.

Well Tranmere getting a draw at cobblers turned out to be the highlight of my sporting day!

At least some good entertainment in town tonight and hopefully a good run on the black Jack tables will improve the day!

Some honesty from Dowse

"Northampton director of rugby Phil Dowson told BBC Radio Northampton:

"I'm sick of telling you that we're getting into the opposition 22 and then we cough up so much ball, whether it's an intercept, a turnover or a kick-through that doesn't go to hand.

"We're profligate with those opportunities and we're not converting enough of them. That's not a new thing, and I appreciate that's frustrating for the fans, but that's something we're working very hard on.

"Secondly, I thought our defence was very poor, particularly in the first half in terms of missing tackles and doing some strange things in defensive alignment.

"And in the second half our discipline [was poor]. We gave away a lot more penalties and we again gave a yellow card away. It's similar issues that we're aware of that we're trying to work on which are not quick fixes.

"The opportunities they had, they took them and we didn't. It's incredibly frustrating."

Quote:

Stockers
Some honesty from Dowse
"Northampton director of rugby Phil Dowson told BBC Radio Northampton:

"I'm sick of telling you that we're getting into the opposition 22 and then we cough up so much ball, whether it's an intercept, a turnover or a kick-through that doesn't go to hand.

"We're profligate with those opportunities and we're not converting enough of them. That's not a new thing, and I appreciate that's frustrating for the fans, but that's something we're working very hard on.


"Secondly, I thought our defence was very poor, particularly in the first half in terms of missing tackles and doing some strange things in defensive alignment.

"And in the second half our discipline [was poor]. We gave away a lot more penalties and we again gave a yellow card away. It's similar issues that we're aware of that we're trying to work on which are not quick fixes.

"The opportunities they had, they took them and we didn't. It's incredibly frustrating."

Same old Jonathan, nothing seems to change 😔

He just struck me as being a bit more realistic and pretty hacked off Rob.

See you next week in La Rochelle!

It really is concerning some of dowson’s decisions all season quite well summed up today. Mitchell and Matavesi were pretty dreadful yet Smith comes on for a token 10 and James doesn’t even get on the pitch.
When we have two very good 9s in James and Braley not playing and Mitch getting 90% of all the vital game time is really showing more of his weaknesses than his strengths.
Good to see Ramm have a stormer today, can we somehow turn him into a centre as we are full of good wings.
God how we miss Andy Symons at 12

The defensive stats for Saints on BT Sport pre kick-off were horrifying.

We are the worst in the league for all key defensive indicators: points conceded; tries conceded; carries conceded; metres conceded and missed tackles. They didn’t mention points conceded when a man down where we are the worst. We are also second worst for penalties conceded.

As Dallaglio said, fancy rugby won’t win trophies without a decent defence.

Quote:

TimperleySaint
It's interesting. Our attack again failed dramatically in the first half if that had stuck we'd have been well ahead and Gloucester who had lost three on the bounce would have been thinking 'not again'... But we didn't so they didn't.
We often hear that we can't question their effort but I think we can. I look at other teams when they defend and the intent is palpable. We often look passive.

It is so frustrating.

+1

As I feared Hinckley was missed at the breakdown. I would also have Joel Matevesi in the 23 to provide a more bulky defensive alternative to our
Iightweight centres. I find it difficult to justify Alex Waller as a starting prop.

I’m a big fan of Mitchell but he missed 3 tackles he should have made that resulted in tries over the last 2 Premiership games. So a perfect opportunity to make it clear that no player is undroppable. Any player who messed up like that in the Jim era got dropped. If they continued to mess up they stopped getting picked at all. There was a reason we made top 4 every season. Our defence is an embarrassment.

Aaron Hinckley not in the match day 23. Is he injured? You could have done with him against Glaws!

We have to accept a couple of things.
First of all this team, and the way they play, is Boyds legacy, (and he is employed as a consultant, can you believe it).
Second the board chose to appoint an inexperienced DOR who inherited a lightweight group of players ill-suited to the demands of the premiership.
Those two points are the root cause of our performances.

Dowson can see what the problems are, he just doesn't know how to sort them out, neither did Boyde. Same problems for years, dodgy line out, especially near to opposition line, dodgy front row, dodgy ball retention in oppo 22, forwards with white line fever and turnstile defence. At times we have improved one or another of those problems for a while, never all of them, and then the problem creeps back again. Yesterday was similar to the embarrassment at Twickenham against Barnet two or three years ago, where everything was dreadful.

Interesting to read Vesty in TRP pretty much rubbishing the proposed new innovations to make rugby more entertaining and suggesting there would be both the law of unintended consequences and that the game could be hugely improved by just enforcing the current rules. Given the suggested innovations in theory favour the more attacking teams great to hear such common sense from him.
Re the game, one thing all those who have coached the better team defences (Edwards, Gustard, Sanderson) have in common is that they get buy in from the players to be as passionate about defence as attack. IF Saints could do that you'd be incredible.

Yesterday was just so depressing, this was an out of sorts and low on confidence side we were playing against and we still managed to make them look good.
As others have said we are suffering from the Boyd legacy and we still keep him on as a consultant, I just don’t understand it. When he started with the squad he inherited we finished forth, we have gone downhill ever since.
We have none of the basics in place to build a good team on and so many of our so called star players are found wanting when the heat comes on.
I am sure Dowson knows what all the problems are but seems unable to fix them or possibly is not allowed to fix them, Boyd legacy again.
It is just so depressing to watch the awful performances we churn out when you know the players we have should be capable of so much more.
I know there are some who love watching this just throw it around and see what happens style of rugby but unless we grab the bull by the horns and start playing some sensible rugby I can only see the club going one way and numbers dropping off rapidly.

Quote:

Saintsfan22
It really is concerning some of dowson’s decisions all season quite well summed up today. Mitchell and Matavesi were pretty dreadful yet Smith comes on for a token 10 and James doesn’t even get on the pitch.
When we have two very good 9s in James and Braley not playing and Mitch getting 90% of all the vital game time is really showing more of his weaknesses than his strengths.
Good to see Ramm have a stormer today, can we somehow turn him into a centre as we are full of good wings.
God how we miss Andy Symons at 12

Braley has been quite a way behind Mitchell & James so far albeit not many minutes under his belt. James has been playing well however.

Think yesterday highlighted a couple of things which epitomises our current squad generally. We look far more potent in attack with Mitchell & Hutchinson, they provide a threat constantly. Both have defensive frailties (Hutchinson has been far better this season to be fair) so it’s risk reward which sums up our ethos, remove both and are attacking threat is greatly reduced but defensively slightly more sound. Almost like the old Kevin Keegan at Newcastle adage, we’ll concede but score more than you. Everyone highlighting the defensive stats on BT but pretty much no-one mentioning the attacking stats which were excellent, 1st or 2nd in pretty much everything. Do we want to adopt a more turgid game plan and drop down those attacking stats to creep up the defence table? I’d say most on here want our cake and eat it which is nigh on impossible. A big shift change of playing style isn’t going to happen as it would take years to churn the squad accordingly

Quote:

Walks11

Quote:

Saintsfan22
It really is concerning some of dowson’s decisions all season quite well summed up today. Mitchell and Matavesi were pretty dreadful yet Smith comes on for a token 10 and James doesn’t even get on the pitch.
When we have two very good 9s in James and Braley not playing and Mitch getting 90% of all the vital game time is really showing more of his weaknesses than his strengths.
Good to see Ramm have a stormer today, can we somehow turn him into a centre as we are full of good wings.
God how we miss Andy Symons at 12

Braley has been quite a way behind Mitchell & James so far albeit not many minutes under his belt. James has been playing well however.

Think yesterday highlighted a couple of things which epitomises our current squad generally. We look far more potent in attack with Mitchell & Hutchinson, they provide a threat constantly. Both have defensive frailties (Hutchinson has been far better this season to be fair) so it’s risk reward which sums up our ethos, remove both and are attacking threat is greatly reduced but defensively slightly more sound. Almost like the old Kevin Keegan at Newcastle adage, we’ll concede but score more than you. Everyone highlighting the defensive stats on BT but pretty much no-one mentioning the attacking stats which were excellent, 1st or 2nd in pretty much everything. Do we want to adopt a more turgid game plan and drop down those attacking stats to creep up the defence table? I’d say most on here want our cake and eat it which is nigh on impossible. A big shift change of playing style isn’t going to happen as it would take years to churn the squad accordingly

From where I am sitting, the points you make are valid. Both concerning defence and attack.
Shall we for a moment, leave the attack as "satisfactory...."
The defensive frailties you highlight are nothing new and indeed BT did focus on the defence stats which had us 11th in every single category. But they did also say that irrespective of our excellent go-forward stats which had us 1st or 2nd across the board, we would win nothing because of the defence. Our Keegan plan does not work We are too frail.
We are back in the days of the post-Premiership decline again, in comment content at least. It is not a case of wanting our cake and eating it, we just want some cake! I.E. wins.
The coaches have been aware of our shortcomings for years. Hutchinson has never been a reliable tackler. So if he plays, he has to be covered. A plan must be in place to support him.
Yesterday Mitchell appeared to have deliberately slowed down. Was he told to? Had the coaches decided something which he was following? Or was he simply slow?
Yes, we are lightweight. But who have we recruited? Not a single "lump". I wonder if we had suggested signing Fraser Balmain, how many people would have laughed? Val P-R has always been a good prop. Just sitting under the radar for some reason. Yet he showed us. And if it isn't Paul Hill mouthing off to the ref after another scrum penalty it's now Alfie Petch. What are they thinking ? Do they think?
The problems are the same as they were last season and the season before. Just not being addressed.
It's not another season down the drain, but another couple.
Still good old Saints. Jam tomorrow.

Quote:

Longers

Quote:

Walks11

Quote:

Saintsfan22
It really is concerning some of dowson’s decisions all season quite well summed up today. Mitchell and Matavesi were pretty dreadful yet Smith comes on for a token 10 and James doesn’t even get on the pitch.
When we have two very good 9s in James and Braley not playing and Mitch getting 90% of all the vital game time is really showing more of his weaknesses than his strengths.
Good to see Ramm have a stormer today, can we somehow turn him into a centre as we are full of good wings.
God how we miss Andy Symons at 12

Braley has been quite a way behind Mitchell & James so far albeit not many minutes under his belt. James has been playing well however.

Think yesterday highlighted a couple of things which epitomises our current squad generally. We look far more potent in attack with Mitchell & Hutchinson, they provide a threat constantly. Both have defensive frailties (Hutchinson has been far better this season to be fair) so it’s risk reward which sums up our ethos, remove both and are attacking threat is greatly reduced but defensively slightly more sound. Almost like the old Kevin Keegan at Newcastle adage, we’ll concede but score more than you. Everyone highlighting the defensive stats on BT but pretty much no-one mentioning the attacking stats which were excellent, 1st or 2nd in pretty much everything. Do we want to adopt a more turgid game plan and drop down those attacking stats to creep up the defence table? I’d say most on here want our cake and eat it which is nigh on impossible. A big shift change of playing style isn’t going to happen as it would take years to churn the squad accordingly

From where I am sitting, the points you make are valid. Both concerning defence and attack.
Shall we for a moment, leave the attack as "satisfactory...."
The defensive frailties you highlight are nothing new and indeed BT did focus on the defence stats which had us 11th in every single category. But they did also say that irrespective of our excellent go-forward stats which had us 1st or 2nd across the board, we would win nothing because of the defence. Our Keegan plan does not work We are too frail.
We are back in the days of the post-Premiership decline again, in comment content at least. It is not a case of wanting our cake and eating it, we just want some cake! I.E. wins.
The coaches have been aware of our shortcomings for years. Hutchinson has never been a reliable tackler. So if he plays, he has to be covered. A plan must be in place to support him.
Yesterday Mitchell appeared to have deliberately slowed down. Was he told to? Had the coaches decided something which he was following? Or was he simply slow?
Yes, we are lightweight. But who have we recruited? Not a single "lump". I wonder if we had suggested signing Fraser Balmain, how many people would have laughed? Val P-R has always been a good prop. Just sitting under the radar for some reason. Yet he showed us. And if it isn't Paul Hill mouthing off to the ref after another scrum penalty it's now Alfie Petch. What are they thinking ? Do they think?
The problems are the same as they were last season and the season before. Just not being addressed.
It's not another season down the drain, but another couple.
Still good old Saints. Jam tomorrow.

And of course we don’t know if we indeed did try and sign the two props in question or many others and failed for whatever reason, money, location, playing style, cream teas, didn’t fancy it. Just because we haven’t signed a big lump in whatever position might not be for lack of trying

I thought it was Manny that got us marched back

One Saints player did have a very good game IMO, and that was Furbank, his catching of the high kicks was excellent, and he always made a lot of ground after the catch.

Agree with almost all of that Longers. Whilst I accept that there is some trade off between focusing on attack versus defence it is not a zero sum game. Yes there were plenty of individual defwnsive errors out there last night but we see that week in, week out, and at the end of the day that must mean to some degree the messages/systems the coaches are coaching are not good enough or are not sinking in. I hope we are telling Vass that he is in the last chance saloon here, whilst also looking into potential replacements. Weakness in several key positions (primarily front row) and wider issues with discipline/defence are holding what could be a very good team back.

Whilst the board should be commended for steering the club through covid, there is a balance to strike between trying to do things on the cheap by promoting young and inexperienced coaches who may not be best placed to move the team forwards (seeing attendances fall - they have been disappointing so far this season) and spending more on recruitment to turn us into genuine title contenders (more sell out gates, playoffs etc). Its not easy, but I worry we are slightly too focused on the former.

If this carries on the crowds will fall away. By their own admission, Saints are 500 season tickets down on where they were a couple of years ago.

Quote:

Walks11

Quote:

Longers

Quote:

Walks11

Quote:

Saintsfan22
It really is concerning some of dowson’s decisions all season quite well summed up today. Mitchell and Matavesi were pretty dreadful yet Smith comes on for a token 10 and James doesn’t even get on the pitch.
When we have two very good 9s in James and Braley not playing and Mitch getting 90% of all the vital game time is really showing more of his weaknesses than his strengths.
Good to see Ramm have a stormer today, can we somehow turn him into a centre as we are full of good wings.
God how we miss Andy Symons at 12

Braley has been quite a way behind Mitchell & James so far albeit not many minutes under his belt. James has been playing well however.

Think yesterday highlighted a couple of things which epitomises our current squad generally. We look far more potent in attack with Mitchell & Hutchinson, they provide a threat constantly. Both have defensive frailties (Hutchinson has been far better this season to be fair) so it’s risk reward which sums up our ethos, remove both and are attacking threat is greatly reduced but defensively slightly more sound. Almost like the old Kevin Keegan at Newcastle adage, we’ll concede but score more than you. Everyone highlighting the defensive stats on BT but pretty much no-one mentioning the attacking stats which were excellent, 1st or 2nd in pretty much everything. Do we want to adopt a more turgid game plan and drop down those attacking stats to creep up the defence table? I’d say most on here want our cake and eat it which is nigh on impossible. A big shift change of playing style isn’t going to happen as it would take years to churn the squad accordingly

From where I am sitting, the points you make are valid. Both concerning defence and attack.
Shall we for a moment, leave the attack as "satisfactory...."
The defensive frailties you highlight are nothing new and indeed BT did focus on the defence stats which had us 11th in every single category. But they did also say that irrespective of our excellent go-forward stats which had us 1st or 2nd across the board, we would win nothing because of the defence. Our Keegan plan does not work We are too frail.
We are back in the days of the post-Premiership decline again, in comment content at least. It is not a case of wanting our cake and eating it, we just want some cake! I.E. wins.
The coaches have been aware of our shortcomings for years. Hutchinson has never been a reliable tackler. So if he plays, he has to be covered. A plan must be in place to support him.
Yesterday Mitchell appeared to have deliberately slowed down. Was he told to? Had the coaches decided something which he was following? Or was he simply slow?
Yes, we are lightweight. But who have we recruited? Not a single "lump". I wonder if we had suggested signing Fraser Balmain, how many people would have laughed? Val P-R has always been a good prop. Just sitting under the radar for some reason. Yet he showed us. And if it isn't Paul Hill mouthing off to the ref after another scrum penalty it's now Alfie Petch. What are they thinking ? Do they think?
The problems are the same as they were last season and the season before. Just not being addressed.
It's not another season down the drain, but another couple.
Still good old Saints. Jam tomorrow.

And of course we don’t know if we indeed did try and sign the two props in question or many others and failed for whatever reason, money, location, playing style, cream teas, didn’t fancy it. Just because we haven’t signed a big lump in whatever position might not be for lack of trying

Again, you're right.

Do you think the "Franks affair" might have put them off?

SaintsDuncan - if so, I owe Alfie an apology, but from the TV I thought it was AP. Either way, they deserve a verbal slap!

Quote:

Longers

Quote:

Walks11

Quote:

Longers

Quote:

Walks11

Quote:

Saintsfan22
It really is concerning some of dowson’s decisions all season quite well summed up today. Mitchell and Matavesi were pretty dreadful yet Smith comes on for a token 10 and James doesn’t even get on the pitch.
When we have two very good 9s in James and Braley not playing and Mitch getting 90% of all the vital game time is really showing more of his weaknesses than his strengths.
Good to see Ramm have a stormer today, can we somehow turn him into a centre as we are full of good wings.
God how we miss Andy Symons at 12

Braley has been quite a way behind Mitchell & James so far albeit not many minutes under his belt. James has been playing well however.

Think yesterday highlighted a couple of things which epitomises our current squad generally. We look far more potent in attack with Mitchell & Hutchinson, they provide a threat constantly. Both have defensive frailties (Hutchinson has been far better this season to be fair) so it’s risk reward which sums up our ethos, remove both and are attacking threat is greatly reduced but defensively slightly more sound. Almost like the old Kevin Keegan at Newcastle adage, we’ll concede but score more than you. Everyone highlighting the defensive stats on BT but pretty much no-one mentioning the attacking stats which were excellent, 1st or 2nd in pretty much everything. Do we want to adopt a more turgid game plan and drop down those attacking stats to creep up the defence table? I’d say most on here want our cake and eat it which is nigh on impossible. A big shift change of playing style isn’t going to happen as it would take years to churn the squad accordingly

From where I am sitting, the points you make are valid. Both concerning defence and attack.
Shall we for a moment, leave the attack as "satisfactory...."
The defensive frailties you highlight are nothing new and indeed BT did focus on the defence stats which had us 11th in every single category. But they did also say that irrespective of our excellent go-forward stats which had us 1st or 2nd across the board, we would win nothing because of the defence. Our Keegan plan does not work We are too frail.
We are back in the days of the post-Premiership decline again, in comment content at least. It is not a case of wanting our cake and eating it, we just want some cake! I.E. wins.
The coaches have been aware of our shortcomings for years. Hutchinson has never been a reliable tackler. So if he plays, he has to be covered. A plan must be in place to support him.
Yesterday Mitchell appeared to have deliberately slowed down. Was he told to? Had the coaches decided something which he was following? Or was he simply slow?
Yes, we are lightweight. But who have we recruited? Not a single "lump". I wonder if we had suggested signing Fraser Balmain, how many people would have laughed? Val P-R has always been a good prop. Just sitting under the radar for some reason. Yet he showed us. And if it isn't Paul Hill mouthing off to the ref after another scrum penalty it's now Alfie Petch. What are they thinking ? Do they think?
The problems are the same as they were last season and the season before. Just not being addressed.
It's not another season down the drain, but another couple.
Still good old Saints. Jam tomorrow.

And of course we don’t know if we indeed did try and sign the two props in question or many others and failed for whatever reason, money, location, playing style, cream teas, didn’t fancy it. Just because we haven’t signed a big lump in whatever position might not be for lack of trying

Again, you're right.

Do you think the "Franks affair" might have put them off?

SaintsDuncan - if so, I owe Alfie an apology, but from the TV I thought it was AP. Either way, they deserve a verbal slap!

Well I guess we will never know what our ‘missed’ targets have been but it shouldn’t be assumed we aren’t trying to sign a better quality prop (or any other position) just because they don’t materialise. Suspect there are lots of conversations that fall by the wayside at various stages. A constant search for unearthing that under the radar gem that doesn’t cost the earth.

On another thread above about who played well, I thought James Ramm looked very tidy

Having played one more game than all the other teams we are currently 6th in the table.

When everyone else has played that extra game and halfway through the season we will be 6th or 7th.

If we are currently 1st or 2nd in all the positive parts of the game ( I thought we were 4th in one) but 6th or 7th in the league then clearly this is not the right strategy.

It is not hard to see where all the low hanging fruit is, but we are told we will not alter what we are doing and carry on with what hasn't worked for the last few years. That is deeply depressing and makes me question the whole structure within the club if this is allowed to continue.

I'd agree that we were poor in defence and didn't have our best game but I don't think Matevesi or Mitchell were that bad bearing in mind they've been two of the better/best players over the season so far. I haven't watched back but I think some of Mitchell's errors were more a case of others not being on his wavelength and he wasn't helped by the offside line being optional for Gloucester until about 70 minutes when there was a token call on it far too late.

For me we do need to improve defence but equally important we need to execute more consistently - we always make chances and have purple patches. In the games where we convert we tend to run away and can afford to concede a try or two. However rugby is so momentum based that it will always turn during a game and it must be so frustrating for the players as well as all of us when they've played well and been on top but just not put the points on only for the opposition to convert their chances.

I do also wonder whether the Gloucester changes also threw us a little, Dows said they were expecting a different approach and they also had a stand-in 10 usually a winger - it looked like we were expecting either close heavy carries or wide-wide and were vulnerable to runs from 10 and 12 back against the drift.

What's frustrating is that I wouldn't bet against some really good performances in Europe where we're realistically not going to compete over the whole tournament.

Quote:

ajack
Having played one more game than all the other teams we are currently 6th in the table.
When everyone else has played that extra game and halfway through the season we will be 6th or 7th.

If we are currently 1st or 2nd in all the positive parts of the game ( I thought we were 4th in one) but 6th or 7th in the league then clearly this is not the right strategy.

It is not hard to see where all the low hanging fruit is, but we are told we will not alter what we are doing and carry on with what hasn't worked for the last few years. That is deeply depressing and makes me question the whole structure within the club if this is allowed to continue.

I entirely agree, what we are doing hasn’t worked, doesn’t work, will never work, if you judge success to be winning trophies. You cannot be shipping at least 20 points a game and more often 30 odd and expect to win consistently. Every week we here so and so wasn’t that bad or so and so wasn’t to blame. Doesn’t matter the result is always the same.

And we are told that they are not going to change, what was it Einstein allegedly said about madness and doing the same thing over and over again?

It was a very frustrating game to watch especially given the amount of threat we posed in the first twenty minutes. Somehow we just lacked the patience to wait and squandered opportunity after opportunity to put points on the board. Then, while we’re still ruing our failings we let the oppo in for an easy try from a defensive lapse. W should have been three tries up and the oppo staring at their bootlaces. As it was we just got worse as the game went on. Yes we got mullered at a couple of scrums, but I suspect that was as much down to collective concentration rather than innate ability. Similarly the line out, what is going wrong on our throw? I really think it’s more about focus than anything else. We have lots of strength in depth, nobody is undroppable, time to get tough Phil!

It's a shame Ludlam was held up over the line. Had that been a try I think we stood a very good chance of 2 BPs and deserved them despite the lacklustre performance. Similarly, Ribeye was unlucky not to hold up the ball over the line. The replay didn't look particularly convincing so we'll have to trust Tempest had a good view - bearing in mind he's not a very capable ref...

As far as defence goes, I stand by what I said a few weeks ago: we need a new defence coach!

Quote:

JCDL86
It's a shame Ludlam was held up over the line. Had that been a try I think we stood a very good chance of 2 BPs and deserved them despite the lacklustre performance. Similarly, Ribeye was unlucky not to hold up the ball over the line. The replay didn't look particularly convincing so we'll have to trust Tempest had a good view - bearing in mind he's not a very capable ref...
As far as defence goes, I stand by what I said a few weeks ago: we need a new defence coach!

Saturdays result wasn’t down to defence coach. They were in right position just failed to make tackles, he can’t tackle for them

Not sure I would agree that everyone was in the right position

First two tries and I commented at the time asking where was our 12 and 13
Both should have been in covering positions
To the extent that Hutch was changed at half time

One other concern is the lack of support for our 10/12 Chanel from set plays
We leave far too much space
Our loose forwards are not getting into position quickly enough

Could go on

But my overriding concern is that if Vass is coaching these players to do the right thing in respect of tackling and getting into position but they are not
He is not getting his message over
You have to ask why not
And can he

As said before if you put Shaun Edwards in charge would there be an improvement
If yes then there is only one problem

I remember Luther being hauled off a England game before half time and replaced by Farrell
Why - he went missing didn’t get up and back quick enough

We need the Farrell energy and determination in our centres
I say that and I’m not a fan

Even if tackles are missed when players are in the correct position, I'd still say it's the defence coach's responsibility to deal with any issues concerning technique and to motivate them. Dowson can obviously intervene and make selection decisions accordingly as well.

I think our best defence in recent years was when Alan Dickens was in charge there. That's what we should aspire to - perhaps AD could return as a consultant for a month?

Quote:

Deesaint
Not sure I would agree that everyone was in the right position
First two tries and I commented at the time asking where was our 12 and 13
Both should have been in covering positions
To the extent that Hutch was changed at half time

One other concern is the lack of support for our 10/12 Chanel from set plays
We leave far too much space
Our loose forwards are not getting into position quickly enough

Could go on

But my overriding concern is that if Vass is coaching these players to do the right thing in respect of tackling and getting into position but they are not
He is not getting his message over
You have to ask why not
And can he

As said before if you put Shaun Edwards in charge would there be an improvement
If yes then there is only one problem

I remember Luther being hauled off a England game before half time and replaced by Farrell
Why - he went missing didn’t get up and back quick enough

We need the Farrell energy and determination in our centres
I say that and I’m not a fan

Mitchell missed tackle for try 1, try 3 I think they waltzed between Hutch & Freeman (Hutch slipped I think), it was a simple one on one backline tackle neither were positional issues just straight up missed tackles. Should we magic up two lines of defence? You can only have a limited number covering otherwise it would be like under 10’s football and everyone would be in a crowd around the ball.

Happy to debate this matter
But lift it up a bit from
Magical lines
Or
10 year olds running after a ball



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:05:20:04:23 by Deesaint.

From comments being made after the game, we planned for one style of game, but got a different one presented to us.

Suggests a certain brittleness about us. However -

We know that Rees Zammit is like poo off a spade, so he has to be marshalled better. He wasn't and he skinned Mitchell.
We know that Carreras is mustard wherever he plays so we need a plan to coral him. Wherever he plays. And this "Get up, get back into position" issue is not new for Saints. How often do we see a three quarter hanging around a ruck?
We know Hutchinson will not/cannot tackle. So he needs a back up plan.

Only one of those issues was dealt with. Hutchinson getting the shepherds crook for Proctor.

The other two. Lord knows!

Quote:

Longers
We know Hutchinson will not/cannot tackle. So he needs a back up plan.

Odd that we "know" this about Hutch, but don't "know" this about Furbank or Dingwall...

Have not been a contributor or believer in the 'our defence is a shambles' debate up to now because I wasnt and am still not convinced that this is always so. I am concerned though about our consistency in defence (and other areas) as we are sometimes right on it defensively with great line speed and intensity that then drop off for patches of games - which appears to me to be a concentration fatigue problem. We can defend but not for 80 minutes.
For exmple the try scored that went between our centres in the second half followed a pick up from the base of the scrum by Glos No. 8 Morgan who you can never accuse of being quick; and he ran 10 yards before Coles at 6 (who was that side of thescrum) had even let go of his bind or lifted his head. He is a good player but on thi occassion he was asleep and it left our defensive line in disarray. I am not having a go at Coles indiviually (who I believe will be very very good) as this seems to be symptomatic of the problem for me. A bit like our early 5 mtr attacking scrum when we got pushed off the ball.
Young and inexperienced players are more likley to be guilty of switching off than old heads. I belive this is an issue which the coaches can and should address as much as possible in training with a young squad like ours; but it probably wont change significantly for a year or two until they have all become mentally older and tougher or we draft in a couple of expereinced workhorse old hands that can make a differenc to this on the pitch.
What I wouldnt give for a couple of players like a Creevy or a Jono Ross - and getting Mr. Lawes back of course.

Confirmation that Singleton suffered a "significant lower leg injury" on Saturday - he's had surgery, but no plan on when he might return yet.
I don't know what it was like at the ground, but the fact that the ref stopped play so quickly, immediately called for the stretcher, and there wasn't a hint of a replay by BT Sport (a very sensible policy) did suggest it was bad.
Poor chap, I hope he recovers quickly.

Quote:

SaintsDuncan

Quote:

Longers
We know Hutchinson will not/cannot tackle. So he needs a back up plan.

Odd that we "know" this about Hutch, but don't "know" this about Furbank or Dingwall...

Ah, but do we and just don't mention it?

Quote:

Longers

Quote:

SaintsDuncan

Quote:

Longers
We know Hutchinson will not/cannot tackle. So he needs a back up plan.

Odd that we "know" this about Hutch, but don't "know" this about Furbank or Dingwall...

Ah, but do we and just don't mention it?

Yeah why let facts get in the way of putting someone down