Saints v Stade Rochelais Match Thread - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:16:08:10:26 by Saint Ted.

Sorry it's a bit late I was forced to be involved in festive 'fun'.

Slightly (very) worried about Waller vs Antonio...

I do scratch my head on why our less mobile heavier and better scrimmaging tight head starts on the bench

Otherwise bit of a shake up and good looking team

Just talked with friends from La Rochelle.
It is their best team available.
I think it will be difficult for the Saints.
The substitutes are maybe a bit lighter.

Edit: only Thomas and Rhule are missing, because injured.

ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:09:20:10:53 by Le marseillais.

Harsh pen, error on the kick through not a great start

On a lighter note
Wonder how well the name on saints training jackets went down with the French

Men v boys a bit again. Huge difference in physicality and skills

Pure power…………referee has given Saints nothing yet



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:10:17:55:16 by Aberavon Wizard.

French row are immune from being offside it seems

And players can join the maul in front of ball carrier.. TMO keen to spot a non tackle but nothing on something resulting in a try. They really don’t need any help from the officials. Going to be a long night



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:10:17:59:18 by Walks11.

Could be a bit of a cricket score. Can't make the amount of errors we are making. These are impressive but we have made it very comfortable for them so far.

Edit - forget could be!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:10:18:03:10 by herbie85.

Not sure what Waller and Smith are bringing to the party other than multiple penalties…….

Penalties yet again. Killing us totally and someone going in the bin before too long. Already you get the feeling this competition is way beyond our capability, 3 tries down before 25 mins played,

Following on the Saints website. It’s not good reading.

Embarrassing. I don’t know why we bother turning up. A point a minute and the penalty count not far behind.

Rugby is such a simple game when you play it properly.

Holy cow, does anyone around here know how to play this game?

Our ongoing deficiencies being magnified

There will no doubt be the argument that the French clubs have more money

But that’s just lazy

Eddie Jones was available but we missed him more than we miss our tackles

Another big game over and done with in the first 20 minutes

Penalty, yellow card and Furbs rushes kick and misses touch…..and the CEO says he wants Saints to be the best team in Europe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:10:18:08:21 by Aberavon Wizard.

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint
Embarrassing. I don’t know why we bother turning up. A point a minute and the penalty count not far behind.

It’s pretty pointless competition all round I’d say, money talks as they say

The surprise in Benjamin kaysers voice when we made a line break probably says it all. These could beat us comfortably with 14, hate to be ultra negative but we have a lot of internationals out there, this shouldn't be a 25 point game. But it deserves to be.

I lost a contact lens shortly before kick off. Think that may have been a blessing!

7+ minutes of a man advantage, missed touch, zero possession, multiple penalties conceded, yellow conceded.
It shows how clueless we are.
Frustrating, as we have some genuinely top class players. I feel some accountability from the coaching staff is needed and possibly a change.

Could have been worse could have spent good money to travel there and watch it

Our basic skill levels seem so bad. So many knock ons. If it was in collisions getting battered by much bigger blokes I would understand, but the majority aren't, they seem unforced. Just so so poor.

Quote:

Walks11

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint
Embarrassing. I don’t know why we bother turning up. A point a minute and the penalty count not far behind.

It’s pretty pointless competition all round I’d say, money talks as they say

And I fear that’s the attitude our leadership has taken

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Awaywin

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Walks11

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Berkshire-Saint
Embarrassing. I don’t know why we bother turning up. A point a minute and the penalty count not far behind.

It’s pretty pointless competition all round I’d say, money talks as they say

And I fear that’s the attitude our leadership has taken

So when we won it
I guess that was completely pointless

Murphy calling our defenders lazy’

Quote:

Deesaint
Murphy calling our defenders lazy’

Certainly very slow to get back to their feet and into the defensive line…..

Tbf it hasn’t always been pointless, for me, something changed when the Heineken Cup ended and the champions cup started (there or there about anyway)

Now I just see the standard December humping by an Irish side at the gardens as the official start to Christmas.

Calls for Courtney to be brought on from the commentary team. Personally I wouldn’t bother risking him receiving another knock.

Quote:

Saint Ted
Tbf it hasn’t always been pointless, for me, something changed when the Heineken Cup ended and the champions cup started (there or there about anyway)
Now I just see the standard December humping by an Irish side at the gardens as the official start to Christmas.

That’s a bit one eyed view

* cheap attempt at humour - contact lense

I don't know which is more depressing our inept performances or the continual excuses on here.

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Deesaint

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Awaywin

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Walks11

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Berkshire-Saint
Embarrassing. I don’t know why we bother turning up. A point a minute and the penalty count not far behind.

It’s pretty pointless competition all round I’d say, money talks as they say

And I fear that’s the attitude our leadership has taken

So when we won it
I guess that was completely pointless

Hmmm that’s not quite what I meant and think you probably know that. For clarity.. it has become increasingly difficult for English teams to compete due to financial inequalities and previous priorities for URC teams. Inclusion of SA teams has in some ways helped as Leinster and co have to put more league minutes into the legs of their internationals. We still have little or no chance of progressing unless we get a lucky draw

Scrums holding their own
Against my expectations

Then lazy by Mitchell

In fairness I think it was ludlam that said he didn't want much changing after Gloucester, so we have his wish more or less.

I hope an apology will be issued by the players and staff, as this is truly embarrassing.

Do try assists count in the stats when they are for the opposition, asking for a friend

Quote:

herbie85
The surprise in Benjamin kaysers voice when we made a line break probably says it all. These could beat us comfortably with 14, hate to be ultra negative but we have a lot of internationals out there, this shouldn't be a 25 point game. But it deserves to be.

Just because it gave me something to look at rather than the rugby..

Saints have 7 internationals in their starting XV for a total of 32 caps (wiki so number might not be 100%)
La Rochelle have 13 internationals with a total of 207 caps.

While i sort of get what you mean and share you frustration there is an obvious gulf in quality and experience

Brace is being exceptionally picky on pretty much everything we do



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:10:18:46:41 by Walks11.

Just the result of years of poor recruitment


Instead of investing in proper cattle up front Saints are still fiddling around with the likes of Waller and Hill. They waste money of players who don’t even play.

For example. They sign the Italy 9 as a 3rd choice and he never plays, total waste of money. Just let Garside cover in the very rare event James and Mitchell are injured. Whose brains came up with that one?

Salakai-Loto - good all round forward who is really a 6. Against proper cattle like Skelton he gets eaten. Not the signing we needed, we needed some South African monster not another athletic lock.

We have lots of good young forwards and backs. Create a platform and allow the youngsters to play.

Right now the board and management are doing their best to ruin a generation of exciting young players by not recruiting a proper set of forwards around which they can actually play.


You could have the All Blacks back line but it makes no difference if you have second rate small forwards. When will the board and management ever learn? Be ruthless in squad management and just get some proper tough forwards. Saints have won tournaments when they have a feared pack and set piece. The current pack looks like a school team against any decent side.



SPEND THE CAP ON FORWARDS. We have exciting backs coming out of our ears…. it’s a production line. If we are going to sign an overseas back, then choose one that makes a difference. Don’t re-sign Proctor in his 30s when he is small like the others. Rotate him out and get some big unit 12. What’s the point of Ramm when we have Hendy and others?


It’s really not hard to just put some pieces in place to give the team a fighting chance. Stop making life hard for yourselves.

Cue the PR department talking up the Munster game next week………..

Quote:

Aberavon Wizard
Penalty, yellow card and Furbs rushes kick and misses touch…..and the CEO says he wants Saints to be the best team in Europe

We're not even the best team in Northampton!

Quote:

Realisticats
Just the result of years of poor recruitment

Instead of investing in proper cattle up front Saints are still fiddling around with the likes of Waller and Hill. They waste money of players who don’t even play.

For example. They sign the Italy 9 as a 3rd choice and he never plays, total waste of money. Just let Garside cover in the very rare event James and Mitchell are injured. Whose brains came up with that one?

Salakai-Loto - good all round forward who is really a 6. Against proper cattle like Skelton he gets eaten. Not the signing we needed, we needed some South African monster not another athletic lock.

We have lots of good young forwards and backs. Create a platform and allow the youngsters to play.

Right now the board and management are doing their best to ruin a generation of exciting young players by not recruiting a proper set of forwards around which they can actually play.


You could have the All Blacks back line but it makes no difference if you have second rate small forwards. When will the board and management ever learn? Be ruthless in squad management and just get some proper tough forwards. Saints have won tournaments when they have a feared pack and set piece. The current pack looks like a school team against any decent side.



SPEND THE CAP ON FORWARDS. We have exciting backs coming out of our ears…. it’s a production line. If we are going to sign an overseas back, then choose one that makes a difference. Don’t re-sign Proctor in his 30s when he is small like the others. Rotate him out and get some big unit 12. What’s the point of Ramm when we have Hendy and others?


It’s really not hard to just put some pieces in place to give the team a fighting chance. Stop making life hard for yourselves.

Nice to see you back

Quote:

herbie85
Our basic skill levels seem so bad. So many knock ons. If it was in collisions getting battered by much bigger blokes I would understand, but the majority aren't, they seem unforced. Just so so poor.

Been saying this for what feels like years now. Our fundamental skills are not good enough to play and dominate the game in the way we want.

Quote:

Aberavon Wizard
Cue the PR department talking up the Munster game next week………..

'Come and see points aplenty at the traditional pre-Christmas humiliating loss at the Gardens in the top-tier European competition'? Probably needs a wordsmith to finesse a little....

These are the kind of performances and results that used to be followed swiftly post match by the 'Learn to play the Saints way!' marketing emails.

Odd thought but will this game be a positive, if it stays a humbling? We seem to have scraped a few games this season or lost games we should have won. Nothing has been convincing. Usual noises come out afterwards. Does this game tell the coaches this approach isn't working? La rochelle are very good, but a top 4 side last year shouldn't be 46 points to nil down after less than an hour, regardless that they are euro champs. I'm not convinced by my own point in fairness, we have done the same thing with varying results for years so not expecting any change.

I’m baffled why that’s not a try, no separation and touched down over goal line

Wow. Thought I’d follow on BT with footy build up on TV. Was hoping for a Saints win. It’s the French money that’s doing it, imho.

46-0 up and the hosts still desperate not to concede….

Off to watch the football. I just hope I don't regret my judgement and we make an amazing comeback playing wonderful rugby. I feel fairly safe.

Quote:

Walks11
I’m baffled why that’s not a try, no separation and touched down over goal line

Inept officials - same reason why Brace said "next one goes to the bin" and then 60 seconds later didn't card anyone at the next infringement in the red zone ...

Money is a factor
But it doesn’t buy attitude and application

Compare their defending when under pressure
To ours in first half

Ehran and Manny showing why they should always be first choice

Yeah baby! Right back in it.




(well, maybe not quite back in it, but took the goose-egg off the scoresheet)
Blydi effing stink, this. And to think I rearranged my hospital coverage so I wouldn't be on-call this afternoon so I could watch this. I are not be intelligent, eh?

But did you see that really nice attacking phase that ended in a try when saints had a one man advantage, with four minutes left in a game that was long lost. Just irrelevant in the end.

Quote:

Saint Gordo
Yeah baby! Right back in it.



(well, maybe not quite back in it, but took the goose-egg off the scoresheet)
Blydi effing stink, this. And to think I rearranged my hospital coverage so I wouldn't be on-call this afternoon so I could watch this. I are not be intelligent, eh?

Just irrational hope I think Gordo, like the rest of us!

Just thinking back to all the guff from the Chairman and CEO at the forum the other week - I don’t deny their financial prudence but where is the passion and ambition from the Club ?

Lions led by donkeys

Meanwhile…….in Qatar

Quote:

Deesaint
Lions led by donkeys

Cheetahs led by Donkeys fighting Lions

Quote:

Deesaint
Our ongoing deficiencies being magnified
There will no doubt be the argument that the French clubs have more money

But that’s just lazy

+1
We are simply not progressing at all and are so mentally fragile.
Just making up the numbers sadly yet again.

It was obvious before the start that our "finishing" team was stronger than our "starting" team so there was a clear strategy of trying to win in the second half. The so called analysis and comment by Robshaw and Murphy completely ignored this.

It was unrealistic to expect to beat La Rochelle full on for 80 minutes, so this to me was a good strategy. Dowson and co obviously hoped to be chasing a deficit of a couple of tries rather than 32 points at half time.

The strategy of saving our ammunition may yet prove to be a good one.

Quote:

herbie85

Quote:

Saint Gordo
Yeah baby! Right back in it.



(well, maybe not quite back in it, but took the goose-egg off the scoresheet)
Blydi effing stink, this. And to think I rearranged my hospital coverage so I wouldn't be on-call this afternoon so I could watch this. I are not be intelligent, eh?

Just irrational hope I think Gordo, like the rest of us!

I get the irrational part, mate!

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fleetg

Quote:

Deesaint
Our ongoing deficiencies being magnified
There will no doubt be the argument that the French clubs have more money

But that’s just lazy

+1
We are simply not progressing at all and are so mentally fragile.
Just making up the numbers sadly yet again.

If you don’t have forwards you don’t win rugby trophies


Ask Ajack

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Realisticats

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fleetg

Quote:

Deesaint
Our ongoing deficiencies being magnified
There will no doubt be the argument that the French clubs have more money

But that’s just lazy

+1
We are simply not progressing at all and are so mentally fragile.
Just making up the numbers sadly yet again.

If you don’t have forwards you don’t win rugby trophies


Ask Ajack

Completely agree with this and your earlier post.
Ajack has been consistent on this through the entire Boyd failed experiment.
It is so so easy to look at recruitment and see how misguided it has been, and I am searching for polite words here.

Gave up at half time today and fell asleep which looks like it was no bad thing.
Have been moaning to Mrs about us going away next Sunday and the Munster game.being selected for that day also but, to be quite honest now, really uncaring now.
The performance today reminded me of travelling many years ago to Dublin and being slaughtered by Leinster and thinking to myself today “where have we actually progressed in those years?”. Very little it seems and haven’t learned the lessons others have about recruitment.

Quote:

Santiago
It was obvious before the start that our "finishing" team was stronger than our "starting" team so there was a clear strategy of trying to win in the second half. The so called analysis and comment by Robshaw and Murphy completely ignored this.
It was unrealistic to expect to beat La Rochelle full on for 80 minutes, so this to me was a good strategy. Dowson and co obviously hoped to be chasing a deficit of a couple of tries rather than 32 points at half time.

The strategy of saving our ammunition may yet prove to be a good one.

Im sorry i just dont buy this. Alex and Paul have been our main starting props all season. I would say Sam, Hutch, and Alex have all been dropped to the bench after a poor performance in the last match and courts is coming back from injury so i think you are giving them an easy get out there. I think that would have been an appropriate strategy but i dont think there was any grand plans in our decision to pick that team. Winning in the second half doesnt mean anything if you completely capitulate in the first. and just to point out even though they took their foot off the gas we still lost the second half 14-12...

Though i dont like to agree with Tommy he is right about recruitment. If you look over the past 3 years the recruitment in the front row it has been Oisín Heffernan, Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi, Nick Auterac, Conor Carey, Ethan Waller, Robbie Smith and Alfie Petch. How many of those realistically have been brought it to challenge the first XV straight away. I would argue only Auterac did really.

Looking at our front row i would say there are currently no A type players, a couple of Bs but the majority Cs. Alex Waller while a great servant for the club is not a great prop and i dont think he would get near the first XV in most other teams challenging for a top 4 spot. Paul Hill has not kicked on to his potential and has become a bit of a meme. In Sam and Mikey we have two really good backup 2s but i would not say either has the makings of a great hooker. If you look at the signings individually like Danny HA or Ethan then they do appear to be a shrewd bit of business, it would be naiive to think that every signing you make will immediately challenge the first XV or be world class, its just not going to happen and you need to build a strong squad. But if you look at those names collectively it is embarrassing to see how little thought or effort has been put into recruitment for the front row, and there are a number of other positions you can do that for and i was mainly using this as an example. I think the club need to take a long look at it and tbh be a bit brutal with the cuts they need to make because its simply not good enough.

Just on the Ramm and Loto signings, i think Loto was brought with 1 eye towards replacing Courts who must be off after the WC if not before and Ramm i doubt is on a large wack of money and we needed to bring in a replacement for Taqele Naiyaravoro. I think Hendy's step up has been a year earlier than expected and is a bonus. After watching him against Italy u20s last year i thought he was a long way off being in the squad.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:10:22:48:15 by Saints Advocate.

Murphy summed it up by calling out our lazy defence.

Any team can be world class in commitment. It hurts more that we were outclassed in commitment.

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Saints Advocate

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Santiago
It was obvious before the start that our "finishing" team was stronger than our "starting" team so there was a clear strategy of trying to win in the second half. The so called analysis and comment by Robshaw and Murphy completely ignored this.
It was unrealistic to expect to beat La Rochelle full on for 80 minutes, so this to me was a good strategy. Dowson and co obviously hoped to be chasing a deficit of a couple of tries rather than 32 points at half time.

The strategy of saving our ammunition may yet prove to be a good one.

Im sorry i just dont buy this. Alex and Paul have been our main starting props all season. I would say Sam, Hutch, and Alex have all been dropped to the bench after a poor performance in the last match and courts is coming back from injury so i think you are giving them an easy get out there. I think that would have been an appropriate strategy but i dont think there was any grand plans in our decision to pick that team. Winning in the second half doesnt mean anything if you completely capitulate in the first. and just to point out even though they took their foot off the gas we still lost the second half 14-12...

Though i dont like to agree with Tommy he is right about recruitment. If you look over the past 3 years the recruitment in the front row it has been Oisín Heffernan, Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi, Nick Auterac, Conor Carey, Ethan Waller, Robbie Smith and Alfie Petch. How many of those realistically have been brought it to challenge the first XV straight away. I would argue only Auterac did really.

Looking at our front row i would say there are currently no A type players, a couple of Bs but the majority Cs. Alex Waller while a great servant for the club is not a great prop and i dont think he would get near the first XV in most other teams challenging for a top 4 spot. Paul Hill has not kicked on to his potential and has become a bit of a meme. In Sam and Mikey we have two really good backup 2s but i would not say either has the makings of a great hooker. If you look at the signings individually like Danny HA or Ethan then they do appear to be a shrewd bit of business, it would be naiive to think that every signing you make will immediately challenge the first XV or be world class, its just not going to happen and you need to build a strong squad. But if you look at those names collectively it is embarrassing to see how little thought or effort has been put into recruitment for the front row, and there are a number of other positions you can do that for and i was mainly using this as an example. I think the club need to take a long look at it and tbh be a bit brutal with the cuts they need to make because its simply not good enough.

Just on the Ramm and Loto signings, i think Loto was brought with 1 eye towards replacing Courts who must be off after the WC if not before and Ramm i doubt is on a large wack of money and we needed to bring in a replacement for Taqele Naiyaravoro. I think Hendy's step up has been a year earlier than expected and is a bonus. After watching him against Italy u20s last year i thought he was a long way off being in the squad.

Alex Coles replaces Courts, in every way

Case in point

And how…
La Rochelle 27,9 M€ +2 M€

La Rochelle have an absolutely monster pack. We're never going to be able to outsize Skelton and Antonio.

But musing on our pack size I think size wise we're much bigger and better than 3 years ago.

Just had a look at our pack weights vs Tigers who have bossed us recently... Pinch of salt with these numbers.

MI - 114kg
SM - 111kg
EP - 134kg
LSL - 121kg
DR - 118kg
LL - 111kg
CL - 115kg
JA - 115kg

Total 939kg

JC - 116kg
JM - 113kg
DC - 123kg
CG - 119kg
HW - 120kg
HL - 110kg
TR - 98kg
JW - 110kg
Total - 909kg

So we're at least comparable to a traditional 'big pack' domestically. From a size perspective.

So why do we not compete? It's either mentality, coaching or game plan. Or all three.

There's no reason why we shouldn't have a dominant pack. Obviously some FR investment would help.

You don't need a huge dominant pack, but you do need one that can remain competitive and you then also need to be superior to the opposition in other areas.

Given the pack we were facing I thought the scrum held up well especially in the second half, although it could be argued it was over as a contest by then.

What a lighter pack cannot do is hold out against a much bigger one to then see the clearing box kick charged down for a try under the posts, or get up to watch the opposition backs just stroll through for another try.

Our penalty count, weak defence, weak box kicking and chase, poor handling and generally having any visible gameplan contribute at least as much if not more than our weak scrum. When you put the whole lot together you end up with the mess we are in.

Why was Skelton warned after few mins about his comments towards saints player but allowed to carry on all game,also his holding off ball and on floor was just blatant all game.
Was this a ex sarries thing going on ?

"I HAVE A BIG ONE".

Well we were rubbish! Actually, we could have been much better and I disagree that it was our packs that let us down. It was always going to be tough up front and we didn’t get much from the officials who saw a lot of silly Saints infringements but ignored those of the oppo. Sadly what I saw was significant naivety among our backs constantly playing into the oppo hands. We kicked so much ball away, usually down the throat of their back three only to lose acres of territory and give their pack red zone time. We must have planned to run them around but we clearly failed totally.. No guile at all, we really needed a Dan Biggar controlling game but we got harem-scarem give it awayitis and a good pummelling as a result.
Our scrum was ok, we won line out ball, we contested hard but then Furbs, Finn and Tommy kicked it back to them!

We won some of their lineout so why not kick to touch ? That seems to be a thing of the past but kicking down the throat of the opposition with space to run back achieves nothing.

Quote:

Bustabloodvessel
Why was Skelton warned after few mins about his comments towards saints player but allowed to carry on all game,also his holding off ball and on floor was just blatant all game.
Was this a ex sarries thing going on ?

1st commentator

Surprised that Skelton hasn’t received more caps

2nd commentator

They have better referees at international level

Presumably the Coaches tell our players to kick the ball back to the opposition at every opportunity ?

Why?

No idea - enlighten me and many others !

Clearly they don't tell them to kick it back at every opportunity or else we wouldn't be top try scorers unless this is a tactic just for the European cup or whatever it is called now SA teams are involved.

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Deesaint

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Realisticats
*all filler, no killer*.

Nice to see you back

Oh, look who’s back (again). History repeating itself I suppose, but I’m sure it’ll play out differently THIS time.

I’ve banned the account so it’s going nowhere. Last time went too far.