Saints v Munster Match Thread - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:22:08:31:33 by Saint Ted.

A home win still gives us a fighting chance of qualifying. COYS!

Looks more like a starting 15 than last week.

I seem to recall Courtney having a coming of age performance against Paul O'Connell a few years ago.

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Saint Maul
A home win still gives us a fighting chance of qualifying. COYS!

Definitely. Last season you need only 6 or 7 points to go through as one of the worst qualifiers, so a couple of home wins ought to see a team progress.

I’m pleased with the selection, that’s a strong side with some useful changes that should keep everyone on their toes. Competition for places means that if you don’t perform you risk getting dropped which is just as it should be. We can win this but only if we have a bit of game management and play sensible rugby as a team. When individuals try to take it on themselves all that happens is the penalty count increases.

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Santiago
Looks more like a starting 15 than last week.
I seem to recall Courtney having a coming of age performance against Paul O'Connell a few years ago.

Wasnt this one was it ?

[www.youtube.com]

That still rates in my top 3 experiences watching rugby,
Great game and fantastic night with Munster supporters

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Deesaint

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Santiago
Looks more like a starting 15 than last week.
I seem to recall Courtney having a coming of age performance against Paul O'Connell a few years ago.

Wasnt this one was it ?

[www.youtube.com]

That still rates in my top 3 experiences watching rugby,
Great game and fantastic night with Munster supporters

40 minutes, penalty, kick for goal surely, my round I’ll nip to the bar, no queue perfect.. big cheer, I’ve missed the try.. doh!

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Walks11

Quote:

Deesaint

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Santiago
Looks more like a starting 15 than last week.
I seem to recall Courtney having a coming of age performance against Paul O'Connell a few years ago.

Wasnt this one was it ?

[www.youtube.com]

That still rates in my top 3 experiences watching rugby,
Great game and fantastic night with Munster supporters

40 minutes, penalty, kick for goal surely, my round I’ll nip to the bar, no queue perfect.. big cheer, I’ve missed the try.. doh!

My son and I were in the corner of the south stand surrounded by Munster supporters, what a night, he still talks about it.

The last time we played them at FG was a great match and atmosphere. One of the best.

I don't see us doing much in this competition, but a game against Munster at home in Europe should be one to really look forward to and I hope we rise to the occasion both on the pitch and in the stands. No doubt there will be plenty of Munster fans over, so we'll need to raise the noise on Sunday - would be nice to hear parts of the ground other than the Tetleys getting behind the team.

Much better looking XV than last weeks strange selections. If I was a total cynic, then I would say it is difficult to see where the next win is coming from looking at the next couple of months fixtures….but Munster are not the team they once were and Saints need to restore some credibility in front of their own supporters. Memories of Tin-Tin scoring in front of the South Stand still remain clear in my mind…….how about yours ?

Ahhh Courtney out, hamstring, Angus Scott Young comes in

What are we doing,?? Why on earth aren't we getting the ball out and away at the scrum? Thats 2 trys it's cost us! It seems every week Mitchell takes to long to get the ball away from scrums rucks and mauls and it costs us. Our backs are supposed to be a big strength of ours so why not use them? So many unforced errors every week.

On field decision making is so poor. Conditions maybe don't help, but Mitchell makes some very basic errors, for all that he gives you in attack (although against regimented defences he often struggles from my limited memory).

It could be worse. We’ve had some good patches in defence, for once. But silly penalties and we’re back on our own line.

I quite like the ref. Don’t say that too often.

Ashamed to say it but I don't know if I'll be watching next week. If we lose because the other team is just better and we play well thats one thing but so many stupid mistakes, every week, starting to get me down.

Downhill you probably wont be watching next week there is no Saints game

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All Downhill
What are we doing,?? Why on earth aren't we getting the ball out and away at the scrum? Thats 2 trys it's cost us! It seems every week Mitchell takes to long to get the ball away from scrums rucks and mauls and it costs us. Our backs are supposed to be a big strength of ours so why not use them? So many unforced errors every week.

To be fair one of those the ball was stuck in the second row and then kicked forward

Yessss get in there ! 🤣



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:18:13:56:10 by All Downhill.

Our attacking lineout/maul is appalling

Irish Twitter feeds going mental over Luds ‘eye gouge’ and not more carded in the melee.

Think I'd rather watch the football 🤣

3 words…
Take the points!

This is definitely a game we should have won. So many errors and missed opportunities. Dare I say it this isn't a good Munster side when compared to those in years past either.

Never thought I would see a game where Saints bored us to death.

The Munster defensive effort has been brilliant although largely illegal. Saints just aren't very good.

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herbie85
This is definitely a game we should have won. So many errors and missed opportunities. Dare I say it this isn't a good Munster side when compared to those in years past either.

maybe not but still too good for Saints

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Saint Gordo
Never thought I would see a game where Saints bored us to death.

Have you not watched the last couple of months? 🤣

Munster have done a very good job in being largely illegal at every ruck and getting away with it. They are slow to roll away and barely release the tackler, slowing ball down played the ref very well. We are a poor side I’m afraid, defence has largely been ok today, set piece poor, no protection for Mitchell at rucks resulting in no quick ball and ineffective attack. Wet ball doesn’t help but even so. Penalty try may have made a difference



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:18:16:16:02 by Walks11.

I’d say definitely a game you could have won if not should have. Terrible bottle job by the ref not giving a clear penalty try when your winger was taken in the air, and also for not keeping the yellow cards coming when Munster infringed time and time again in the red zone. They should have gone down to about 12 men. However Saints didn’t look too effective for much of the half. Apologies for the intrusion - just watched the second half on a quiet Sunday afternoon!

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A2O

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herbie85
This is definitely a game we should have won. So many errors and missed opportunities. Dare I say it this isn't a good Munster side when compared to those in years past either.

maybe not but still too good for Saints

Oh absolutely. Just saying we should have won quite comfortably with the cards, field position, opportunities etc. Which highlights where we are. I can't fault the effort today, however a lack of basic skills, how easy it is to score against us and a lot of the decision making on field is the worry.

Don’t care what it costs get Denis Leamy 🤣

Going through the list of excuses

The ref

We got tired because our game makes our players tired

High risk high reward

Young team

It was cold

It was raining

No doubt
We will learn from that !!


Bottom line we are a team run by a balance sheet
Lowest cost possible
Look at the players we have let go and not replaced
Even coaching team

It’s not good



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:18:14:58:43 by Deesaint.

When Lewis went off he was saying it started because of a punch in the very first ruck I think on Sam M.

So that could easily be the end in any knockout form of the Challenge cup as well?

A typical example of why Rugby Union cannot sustain itself as a serious commercial game. Munster cheated constantly for the last 25 minutes which stifled any attacking play and made the game very frustrating as a spectacle.

Had this been a Premiership game, Saints would have had a penalty try and the Munster player would have been red carded. That would have been a turning point at 17-13 and a 1 man advantage.

I am not sure why we bother about European Rugby because we have absolutely no chance of beating the top French sides or the Munster/Leinster, pseudo Irish national team.

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Whiston Saint
A typical example of why Rugby Union cannot sustain itself as a serious commercial game. Munster cheated constantly for the last 25 minutes which stifled any attacking play and made the game very frustrating as a spectacle.
Had this been a Premiership game, Saints would have had a penalty try and the Munster player would have been red carded. That would have been a turning point at 17-13 and a 1 man advantage.

I am not sure why we bother about European Rugby because we have absolutely no chance of beating the top French sides or the Munster/Leinster, pseudo Irish national team.

Forgot that excuse

Opposition cheated

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Stokey
The Munster defensive effort has been brilliant although largely illegal. Saints just aren't very good.

So was it brilliant or illegal or was it brilliantly illegal. The game is heading for oblivion and at the current rate of commercially suicidal development, the Prem will be down to 8 teams in 3 years time or semi-professional. Who would pay £40-50 per match to watch that kind of entertainment?

No.

Can't be arsed!

That was pathetic. From the coaching to the players.

Forgot that excuse

Opposition cheated[/quote

Not an excuse, we were poor on attackz

I watched the game with 3 neutral supporters, they all said the same. It was just an abysmal spectacle and kills the game.

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Stokey
The Munster defensive effort has been brilliant although largely illegal. Saints just aren't very good.

Add into that a pretty awful referee and you get a very dull game. It really is hard work watching Saints these days.

It was absolutely rubbish. Fast losing interest in this team, sadly. You just know they’ll have no bite and just lose. Ok in nice weather, other than that very poor. Not sure Dowse is up to the task to be honest. Something needs to change, but won’t. That said…should have been a penalty try, then who knows what would have happened.

I'd like to know what our coaches make of that game, which perfectly shows our lack of big ball carriers that can make ground in close quarters, and lack of penetration when ball in hand.
Braley should have been given a chance to try and change the game, useless having him if we dont use him!

My overriding thought coming away from that game is that it could so easily have been a game from the end of the Mallinder era. A turgid performance resulting in a loss at home. Saints devoid of any creativity and ability to open up a determined defence, all huff and puff but no blow your house down. Even down to the seemingly pointless late substitutions (4 mins for Hinckley and 2 for Skosan, I think it was, and Braley left unused on the bench despite Mitchell misfiring somewhat). A very frustrating watch - though this should have been expected from our habitual terrible pre-Christmas performance in Europe! Had we been against better opposition we could easily have shipped a lot of points; as it was this is only the second game in a long time we've conceded fewer than 20. (Apparently the first time in 50 weeks we've failed to score a try at home too - wouldn't be at all surprised if the last time was also in the Champions Cup.)

One question I would ask is if a team has just been given a yellow card for repeated infringements and then in literally the next piece of play commits another penalty offence in the red zone, why is that not another yellow card? It would happen in a scrum, so why not open play? As terrible as we were, it does feel that the only way Munster shut us down in the second half from scoring anything was through repeated infringing.

One question. Would we have won that game with Biggar at 10?

A game of wasted opportunities & a bottled penalty try.

Some thoughts from a cold, wet and let’s be honest, pretty miserable afternoon.

Saints possess zero game management skills.

I don’t know what the brawl was all about but I would guess something very amiss may have occurred ?

I have a better understanding now why Mitch is not getting England opportunities.

I must find out why Lawes was not involved having been named on Friday………..doh.

Ian Vass needs to watch the video very carefully and watch a second half defensive masterclass from the visitors.

Bearing in mind the sheer number of Munster supporters, the CEO should be concerned at the empty seats around the stadium - yes, I know it was on TV and it was a horrible day but even so….

Fin Smith would have been a great understudy to Biggar - as it is, he has an awful lot to learn but has time on his side and I have confidence he will blossom in time.

How many more times will Saints mess up an attacking line-out five yards out ?

European competition remains a step too far for Saints at the highest level - format is ridiculous.

I am thankful that Marcus Smith is likely to be unavailable for New Years Day - I’ll bet Danny Care plays a blinder……!

‘Saints are falling apart again’ - well, it’s a new song at The Gardens

But fear not - the Chairman and CEO tell us we are financially prudent….so everything is rosy……sic



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:18:17:35:40 by Aberavon Wizard.

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Awaywin
One question. Would we have won that game with Biggar at 10?

Why not insert Jonny Wilkinson for Biggar?

Or if that offends as he wasn't a Saint, why not substitute Dickie Jeeps for Alex Mitchell.

Home from a cold and miserable afternoon at the gardens. Fair play to Munster, defence was stoic and they pushed the boundaries of legality as all teams do, other than Saints it seems. Poor selection of not having Dingwall starting, without him the backs are devoid of leadership. F.Smith has a lot of potential but needs to learn to be more demanding, to answer the question if we would have won with Biggar, who knows but he'd have made a big difference. How they butchered the attacking opportunity from a 5m scrum under the posts when Munster where a player short in the back line, truly appalling!
Also, not sure why we have F.Smith defending at 10 when 5m from our try line. I'd have thought it'd be better to have him on the wing and Freeman defending at 10, Munster's second try was very easy, a big number 8 vs a small number 10, practically walked over the line.
The frustrating thing about the Saints at the moment is that you can't see any improvements and if anything we are getting worst which would suggest serious questions need to be asked of someone (think mixture of players not being up to it and coaches out of their depth)

Yea I believe we would have won if bigger was at 10 but we made the financially prudent decision over the sporting decision.

Why didn’t they put Furbank to 10 with 20 to go instead of 90 secs? Smith will be good but he couldn’t unlock the door today.

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andysaint
Yea I believe we would have won if bigger was at 10 but we made the financially prudent decision over the sporting decision.
Why didn’t they put Furbank to 10 with 20 to go instead of 90 secs? Smith will be good but he couldn’t unlock the door today.

Not really sure there is much to suggest we would have won with Biggar playing most of the problems we had today we had when he was playing. Add in some poor playing conditions and we nearly always struggle more.

I couldn't understand switching Furbank to 10 with 90 seconds left unless there is some reason to give a certain number of players game time?

Not sure we have heard the last of the second half fracas………….

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure we have heard the last of the second half fracas………….

It was a lot of nothing.. maybe some additional yellow cards but I didn’t see any clear red card offence. Be interesting trying to see what Lewis was alluding to in that he said a punch was thrown that sparked it off, nothing picked up on TV. The Munster 6 was grinning as he walked off so maybe him. I know the ref did the right thing in stopping the game but in some ways this gave everyone licence to pile in. Had game continued it would have probably fizzled out between the 3 or 4 of them. Being harsh Luds hand flapped on face of Munster player, both he and Ribbans were pinning Munster player down unclear whether it was across throat and a Munster player 15 I think and Proctor missiled in at different points. Based on what we saw a lot of huff and puff and nothing more

Walks - I hope you are right but those fingers were awfully close……

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Tigersfan1
I’d say definitely a game you could have won if not should have. Terrible bottle job by the ref not giving a clear penalty try when your winger was taken in the air, and also for not keeping the yellow cards coming when Munster infringed time and time again in the red zone. They should have gone down to about 12 men. However Saints didn’t look too effective for much of the half. Apologies for the intrusion - just watched the second half on a quiet Sunday afternoon!

To be honest, Munster would need to have gone down to about 7 for Saints to find a way over the line.

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Awaywin
One question. Would we have won that game with Biggar at 10?

Nope.
We frequently didn't when we had him.

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Longers

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Awaywin
One question. Would we have won that game with Biggar at 10?

Why not insert Jonny Wilkinson for Biggar?

Or if that offends as he wasn't a Saint, why not substitute Dickie Jeeps for Alex Mitchell.

Purely because the club allowed him to leave his contract early.

But my main point is

Biggar to Smith
Hartley to Matevasi
Reinach to Mitchell

You can’t keep haemorrhaging quality and not replacing it, and being so stubborn not to recruit in the positions we need most.

In addition to all of the other faults mentioned I lost count of the number of times at a ruck that nobody covered for Mitchell when he wasn't available causing either turnovers or messy rushed ball.

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Longers
No.
Can't be arsed!

That was pathetic. From the coaching to the players.

I had a big long review in mind of our various shortfalls and weaknesses but why bother writing what we all witnessed. A perfect, succinct summary Longers.

Why did we insist on attacking them where they are strongest? And then when that didn’t work……doing it again?

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rjm1155
In addition to all of the other faults mentioned I lost count of the number of times at a ruck that nobody covered for Mitchell when he wasn't available causing either turnovers or messy rushed ball.

That’s the worrying thing for me. Some of the repeat mistakes we make are so basic. It just wouldn’t happen repeatedly like that at Sarries, Exeter or Tigers as the coaches would ensure those obvious types of scenarios are trained for and another player steps in.

We look like we are going backwards.

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Saint Maul

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rjm1155
In addition to all of the other faults mentioned I lost count of the number of times at a ruck that nobody covered for Mitchell when he wasn't available causing either turnovers or messy rushed ball.

That’s the worrying thing for me. Some of the repeat mistakes we make are so basic. It just wouldn’t happen repeatedly like that at Sarries, Exeter or Tigers as the coaches would ensure those obvious types of scenarios are trained for and another player steps in.

We look like we are going backwards.

Yep.
I would like to hear Mark Darbon's answer as to where we are with his plan from 4 years ago to be the number 1 club in Europe and NRFC's latest strategy and action plan to get there !!!
Meanwhile, the crowd numbers continue to fall and the atmosphere is non existant.

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stoofer
Why did we insist on attacking them where they are strongest? And then when that didn’t work……doing it again?

because it was wet

Would we have won with Dan

Who knows
But both their tries came from their forwards targeting the 10 Chanel to get over the line, going through our 10 very easy
I always thought Dan tackled far above his weight
Would he have held up or stopped the tries
Who knows

But then you have to think
Where were our loose forwards
Why were they not quick enough to get into position to stop their runner
We seem to be missing a rugby brain
We are not quick in our thinking

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fleetg
Meanwhile, the crowd numbers continue to fall and the atmosphere is non existent.

Yet according to the Offy it was a bumper crowd , but from the comfort of home it didn't look like one with quite sizeable gaps everywhere.

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Flook

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fleetg
Meanwhile, the crowd numbers continue to fall and the atmosphere is non existent.

Yet according to the Offy it was a bumper crowd , but from the comfort of home it didn't look like one with quite sizeable gaps everywhere.

Dillusional - there were a heck of a lot more spectators for the Barbarians game

Depressingly regular viewing now. Confidence ebbing away

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Aberavon Wizard

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Flook

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fleetg
Meanwhile, the crowd numbers continue to fall and the atmosphere is non existent.

Yet according to the Offy it was a bumper crowd , but from the comfort of home it didn't look like one with quite sizeable gaps everywhere.

Dillusional - there were a heck of a lot more spectators for the Barbarians game

Quite agree, "..dillusional.." bit like the Board if it thinks all is well on the playing side. Bums on seats will continue to decline over the remainder of the season. Feeling depressed about the Club on a miserable Monday morning

Squad is just not good enough to compete at the highest levels domestically or in Europe. Sad but true. It's a long way back.

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Pint of Export
Squad is just not good enough to compete at the highest levels domestically or in Europe. Sad but true. It's a long way back.

I agree.

Sadly we must also include the coaching staff in that as we have a poor record on recruitment in several positions when supposedly raising the squad standard.

Munster didn't construct any chances they simply cashed in on Saints mistakes. Matavesi didnt strike the ball on our scrum so Munster turnover and they scored. Missed lineouts usually at 5 metres out. Its all well and good complaining about the defence but if we dont get the basics right and stop giving the ball away we will never do any good. There's been lots of comments about needing new props, a hooker that can do the basics must be top priority.

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ajack

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andysaint
Yea I believe we would have won if bigger was at 10 but we made the financially prudent decision over the sporting decision.
Why didn’t they put Furbank to 10 with 20 to go instead of 90 secs? Smith will be good but he couldn’t unlock the door today.

Not really sure there is much to suggest we would have won with Biggar playing most of the problems we had today we had when he was playing. Add in some poor playing conditions and we nearly always struggle more.

I couldn't understand switching Furbank to 10 with 90 seconds left unless there is some reason to give a certain number of players game time?

We didn't get the ball too far past a runner at 9, which is why it was so predictable and easy to defend. Perhaps this was playing the conditions, but it certainly played into Munsters hands being that easy to read.

Here are of couple of points I would like to add.
Why with all the field position in the 2 nd half Saints
kept trying to knock down a solid wall of defence.
A couple of drop goals 6 points, regain possession
on restart, gives forwards a breather. Also changers
the mindset of the opposition. Final point why treat Rahm
like George North, give him the ball, he was Frozen on wing.
When they did use him you it should have been a penalty try.

Had to take day as I was hugely frustrated watching that - yes we didn't execute well but seriously weak officiating both in terms of the penalty try and repeated infringements. When you've got an ex-Tiger in Kay and a Munsterman in Hanrahan (yes I know he briefly played for us) both saying nailed on penalty try and wondering why there weren't more yellows......

Despite that and the weather being very much suited to their game plan not ours we could/should have won that if we'd taken chances, either as suggested above taking penalties or drop goals or converting chances. It was mentioned that despite scoring tries our red zone efficiency is actaully pretty poor. We score some crackers from further out but when that doesn't work we then tend to struggle to convert. The commentators pointed out that it isn't strictly a 'cattle' issue any more, we do have some units and good carriers.

Personally I think we need to adapt our breakdown strategy near the line (say in the 22) - clearly we want to go for quick ruck speed which is great when it works but gives them an easy out when it doesn't.

Will be interesting to see what comes of the analysis of the big ruck, although no clear punches were thrown its unusual to see such a big brawl these days. I reckon Ludlam may be in trouble, even if not intentional fingers near the eyes is bad and I think Proctor may also cop a short ban for his 'clear-out' which would have been illegal even during play!

A very frustrating match and that's now three really poor performances on the bounce. Munster's defence was good, frequently pushing boundaries, but our execution and decision making - even given the conditions - was terrible.

There were a number of occasions in the second half where we were playing in their 22 with a penalty advantage and were just trying to bash it up. It's free ball - why not put it through the hands or try playing with a little more width, given we were having little joy going through the middle?

Mitchell was not playing very well and some of his passing in the last 20 mins was looking pretty laboured. Why not bring Braley on?
Similarly, why did Hinkley only get on with 5 mins left?

I still believe there is a lot of potential in our squad but it feels like we have been treading water a while now. Leadership, nous and pragmatism all continue to be lacking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:19:15:22:54 by St Marcus.

The breakdown and the gainline were where we lost the game. Slow ball doesn't work with saints game plan.