Saints v Exeter 7th January 2022 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:11:10:50:19 by Saint Ted.

Chalk and cheese their front row compared to ours. I think we’ll miss the physicality Ribbans, Augustus, Courtney, Matavesi and Painter would have brought in windy, wet and dark away conditions. Though I like the physicality Lukhan brought at 6 v Quins. I’m envisaging us trying expansive rugby in the conditions knocking on, conceding scrum penalties turning to kicks to the corner followed by the likes of Ewers barging over.

Hope I’m wrong and we can turn it on like we did v Quins. COYS!!!

Agree with St Maul. Think we might just come second.

Any news on Aaron Hinkley not listed again?

Too light up front. Prediction changed to a loss ☹️

Hi all,
New to the forum. Mr Dowson said in a feature in local press that both Hinkley and Collins will get game time at some point, at least Collins is named on the bench.
IMHO I believe both players are fantastic and always perform when selected, I have rated Tom for years and I'm as frustrated as he probably is with the lack of opportunities.
Hope we can carry on where we left off against Quins.

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Sans Culottes
Too light up front. Prediction changed to a loss ☹️

I have no view either way on your comment.

But it is interesting to see that it was a common comment prior to the 'Quins game. A game I had little confidence in!

Hopefully I am suitably and similarly surprised!

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Longers

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Sans Culottes
Too light up front. Prediction changed to a loss ☹️

I have no view either way on your comment.

But it is interesting to see that it was a common comment prior to the 'Quins game. A game I had little confidence in!

Hopefully I am suitably and similarly surprised!

I would imagine that there are quite a few that have this comment or something similar saved to their clipboard

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Longers

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Sans Culottes
Too light up front. Prediction changed to a loss ☹️

I have no view either way on your comment.

But it is interesting to see that it was a common comment prior to the 'Quins game. A game I had little confidence in!

Hopefully I am suitably and similarly surprised!

I was curious as I couldn’t remember any comments on being light upfront in advance of the Quins game on this board. I checked and couldn’t find even one comment about concerns about the selection being lightweight upfront in either the Teams Up thread or How important is tomorrow thread.

There never seems to be much rhyme nor reason why Saints can light it up some days and @#$%& the bed other days. Obviously theams with stronger packs like Leicester and Saracens have a good record against Saints, but that can be said about thier records against most teams. I think the starting XV is fine, but worry about the bench. On the other hand there are three players on thier bench I don't recognise.

Toss up?

The most impressive thing last week for this neutral was that you played despite the conditions. I suspect you'll need to again as I think, even now, Chiefs are a tricky team to beat in an arm-wrestle. Ewers back is huge for them IMO.

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Saint Maul

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Longers

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Sans Culottes
Too light up front. Prediction changed to a loss ☹️

I have no view either way on your comment.

But it is interesting to see that it was a common comment prior to the 'Quins game. A game I had little confidence in!

Hopefully I am suitably and similarly surprised!

I was curious as I couldn’t remember any comments on being light upfront in advance of the Quins game on this board. I checked and couldn’t find even one comment about concerns about the selection being lightweight upfront in either the Teams Up thread or How important is tomorrow thread.

Oh dear.

Nurse??

Latest weather report, from BBC, shows rain ceasing about 4pm and holding off until 8pm.
Wind calming down.

Fair to say that there was a good deal of despondancy up until the Quins game.

Now, a lot of hope and expectation. Let's hope the team continue in the same manor.

However, having been a Saints supporter for many a year I fear we may come up short
Although really hope not.

Think the biggest missing element will be Ribeye's aggression and drive.

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Longers

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Saint Maul

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Longers

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Sans Culottes
Too light up front. Prediction changed to a loss ☹️

I have no view either way on your comment.

But it is interesting to see that it was a common comment prior to the 'Quins game. A game I had little confidence in!

Hopefully I am suitably and similarly surprised!

I was curious as I couldn’t remember any comments on being light upfront in advance of the Quins game on this board. I checked and couldn’t find even one comment about concerns about the selection being lightweight upfront in either the Teams Up thread or How important is tomorrow thread.

Oh dear.

Nurse??

Oops. I was in a rush heading out last night and inadvertently put the raising a glass/having a beer emoji in response to your post in the midst of your post rather than in response section Longers.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:07:08:20:30 by Saint Maul.

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Sans Culottes
Too light up front. Prediction changed to a loss ☹️

Should have added “ delighted “ to eat my words. 😁

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Saint Maul
Chalk and cheese their front row compared to ours. I think we’ll miss the physicality Ribbans, Augustus, Courtney, Matavesi and Painter would have brought in windy, wet and dark away conditions. Though I like the physicality Lukhan brought at 6 v Quins. I’m envisaging us trying expansive rugby in the conditions knocking on, conceding scrum penalties turning to kicks to the corner followed by the likes of Ewers barging over.
Hope I’m wrong and we can turn it on like we did v Quins. COYS!!!

I really struggle reading this comment and wonder at what point you and some fans will start to recognise the great work our front row has done under Ferguson over the last year or two.
We are without doubt a top 4 team at the scrum this season and this is not a weakness any longer.
Give the boys and staff the credit they deserve!

I think the scrum has shown some progress under Ferguson and it proves to an extent that front row forwards do not have to be twenty stone monsters if their technique is up to the mark. That being said there seems to some doubt as to what constitutes our best starting 1-3. The recruitment of our new hooker will concentrate some minds for the rest of the season.

Not a good start with too many penalties and indecision by freeman in trying to do something fancy instead of clearing his lines.

Not woken up here. Poor decision making and a referee who is only policing one sides offside line

Really poor start. All the basics seem to have gone.

Usual service has been resumed I see 🙄

Out-muscled and clueless first quarter……..one or two decisions beginning to go our way however but the line out……..grrrr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:07:16:54:39 by Aberavon Wizard.

When BT went to Ali hepher and asked him what's the difference between this week and getting battered by sarries last week, he could have just replied the opposition to save time.

We are on top in the scrums, apart from that hard to find any positives.

Just embarrassing at this point

How long can Mitchell continue to perform so badly and be picked every week it’s frightening that he hasn’t been dropped for Braley or James after the last month or so’s performances and today it’s error after error again
Get Braley on give him a chance

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All Downhill
Usual service has been resumed I see 🙄

Sadly yes.

Not sure what Dingwall could have done to avoid contact there. Committed before the Exeter player jumped.

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All Downhill
Just embarrassing at this point

It's ok as apparently we are really good to watch though.

It’s bad enough watching this - but the commentary is making it 1000x worse.

It’s all very well claiming your protecting players from tackles in the air but it’s about time that players who come on leading with a knee or a boot are penalised as that is just as likely to injure a player in front of them. Totally ridiculous penalty decision, Exeter player completely at fault and responsible for ensuring same responsibility.

Clear obstructions on that try too, LCD was sandwiched between two teammates.
Not that it’s going to make much difference as we can’t get over the gainline

Turned it off I can't remember the last time we played this badly and that's saying something this season, you look foreward to it all week, and then....... 😞

Why has Mitchell just taken a quick penalty tsp when down in their area instead of going for corner and putting pressure on them. Lost it again. Game management terrible at moment.

We’d still be losing but not by as much if we had a ref who was competent. Exeter frequently offside, not retreating ten, as for the tackle in the air…..

Didn’t think you were allowed play the 9 .. but there you go.

2nd half will be better.

Shows how poor Quins were last week

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JohnI
Why has Mitchell just taken a quick penalty tsp when down in their area instead of going for corner and putting pressure on them. Lost it again. Game management terrible at moment.

we haven’t won a lineout yet have we, other than when LCD throws it

One positive - we’re getting more scrum penalties but I suspect that’s more to do with a referee who’s decided they’ll go to the dude that’s putting in.

Absolutely dreadful. As already been said…normal service has been resumed!

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Bucksaint
We’d still be losing but not by as much if we had a ref who was competent. Exeter frequently offside, not retreating ten, as for the tackle in the air…..

Agree he hasn't been great. I know your not forgiving the performance but we've been far worse than the ref however, which is a statement in itself

The sad thing is all the fans on this website could see what's happening coming a day before it has. Why couldn't the coaching staff?

The ref’s assistants normally police the off side
I don’t think they are that bad
They are pushing it to the limit but have very quick line speed and are simply stopping us from playing
At present we have no answer

Let’s hope someone comes up with a plan at half time

We need to develop our kicking game, as it is we’re losing out every time we kick. Every time we kick the ball away we end up with an Exeter line out in our 22.

Exeters game is simple but effective - this is paying huge dividends due to the weather and our poor discipline. Our game is complex and ineffective and totally washed out by effective defence. We do not have the forwards to take on Exeter so, I guess we keep flinging it around and hope for the best.

At least we won’t be losing many players during the six nations.

No go forward at all. Mitchell is too ponderous.

Nice full moon and the wind behind us.

Oh this is terrible - not getting better in the second half, then! 😂

And the 2nd half starts no better. We can't even tackle the ref correctly

Team talk worked then 🤣🤣 you have to laugh at this point!

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Flyhooker
And the 2nd half starts no better. We can't even tackle the ref correctly

First time I've smiled this game!

I said a few days ago that it looked to be a wet and windy game which would allow Chiefs to return to their DNA of penalty, lineout, rollover. No, I was told, Exeter don’t play that way anymore……..!

Chiefs were in a hole but they stopped digging this afternoon

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Flyhooker
And the 2nd half starts no better. We can't even tackle the ref correctly

Message of the day!!! 😂😂

First lineout. Chiefs hold the catcher in the air and the lifters obstructing, penalty against us

I thought releasing the tackler, staying on your feet and no hands in ruck were all laws of the game… seemingly not

I am glad I managed to make it to the gardens last week and it was a really enjoyable experience. But it looks like that performance was a complete fluke.
Back to the status quo this week, another disgraceful performance.
Mitchell is in appalling form and shouldn’t be near the pitch with Braley and James as options.
I fully expect us to score a few tries now the game is lost. But this team seriously need to look at themselves.

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Sans Culottes
First lineout. Chiefs hold the catcher in the air and the lifters obstructing, penalty against us

Waller’s got a plan.Take out the ref😁

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Berkshire-Saint
I am glad I managed to make it to the gardens last week and it was a really enjoyable experience. But it looks like that performance was a complete fluke.
Back to the status quo this week, another disgraceful performance.
Mitchell is in appalling form and shouldn’t be near the pitch with Braley and James as options.
I fully expect us to score a few tries now the game is lost. But this team seriously need to look at themselves.

If we score a few tries maybe the game will no longer be lost 😁

Looking better now. We are clearly the best team in the league, now

Oh come on. Could that Mitchell pass have been more telegraphed? Yeesh

I hate singling out individuals but as a few have already mentioned....how does Mitchell keep getting selected? Decision making appalling, costs us more points than he creates.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:07:17:54:36 by herbie85.

Now looking better but still too many sloppy mistakes

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Saint Kris
Now looking better but still too many sloppy mistakes

Can you let everyone know what it is you're drinking? I want some!

Mitchel 😩😩😩😩

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Longers

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Saint Kris
Now looking better but still too many sloppy mistakes

Can you let everyone know what it is you're drinking? I want some!

Irn Bru as it happens 😁

Seriously, though, I think we’ve seen an improvement in continuity in the second half (admittedly from a very low level).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:07:18:01:41 by Saint Kris.

It's quite appalling really that we're just supposed to accept this. Imagine those fans that have paid 50 quid travelled all the way down there stood in the rain for hours and get served up this! It's embarrassing from the players and coaching staff.

Furbank unceremoniously dumped - nobody looking at that?

Ffs look after the ball…….

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Aberavon Wizard
I said a few days ago that it looked to be a wet and windy game which would allow Chiefs to return to their DNA of penalty, lineout, rollover. No, I was told, Exeter don’t play that way anymore……..!
Chiefs were in a hole but they stopped digging this afternoon

In case you don't watch any games their lineout is the worst in the premiership so they are hardly building their game on that, it was pretty poor again today.

Looking forward to the uninspiring dirge from Dowson at full time.

Think the referee’s handled the ball more than some players

Nice to see Boyd at the game and the influence he is still having on the team.

Ah well, nice easy couple of fixtures in Europe to look forward too to get back on it

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ajack

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Aberavon Wizard
I said a few days ago that it looked to be a wet and windy game which would allow Chiefs to return to their DNA of penalty, lineout, rollover. No, I was told, Exeter don’t play that way anymore……..!
Chiefs were in a hole but they stopped digging this afternoon

In case you don't watch any games their lineout is the worst in the premiership so they are hardly building their game on that, it was pretty poor again today.

Oh really…..and how many lineouts did we butcher today ?

Well the one positive is our scrum! Yes Exeter have some problems there but we looked very solid. Manny didn’t look good though, hope it’s nothing too serious.

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Saint Kris
Think the referee’s handled the ball more than some players

And better 😁

Really didn’t expect to win that
But hugely disappointed at the performance

Not going to be an easy few games in front of us o er the next month or two

We simply do not have the muscle or rugby intelligence to compete against the better clubs

That was really disappointing - to state the obvious. I can’t help but think we lack both forwards and a game plan to dominate an opposition. It’s just rubbish right now.

Cheers all

A few more injuries too that won't help anything either. Lets hope the game against tiggers will be decimated by England Training camp call ups...... to Tiggers players

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Aberavon Wizard

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ajack

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Aberavon Wizard
I said a few days ago that it looked to be a wet and windy game which would allow Chiefs to return to their DNA of penalty, lineout, rollover. No, I was told, Exeter don’t play that way anymore……..!
Chiefs were in a hole but they stopped digging this afternoon

In case you don't watch any games their lineout is the worst in the premiership so they are hardly building their game on that, it was pretty poor again today.

Oh really…..and how many lineouts did we butcher today ?

The difference is I wouldn't ever claim our whole game is based on our shaky lineout, despite it being better than the Exeter one statistically.
It is hard to understand why people still believe things to be true that haven't been for a good while.

So depressing, just read the above and we've been saying the same all season after most games. And indeed for the past couple of years, and what gets me down the most is it's not going change any time soon....and please ask Mr Boyd to gracefully return to NZ

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Deesaint
Really didn’t expect to win that
But hugely disappointed at the performance

Not going to be an easy few games in front of us o er the next month or two

We simply do not have the muscle or rugby intelligence to compete against the better clubs

I think it's definitely the rugby intelligence and game plan that's lacking. I think with effectively 3 second rows playing today, I don't think we would have been giving away much weight if any (could well be very wrong). Also get the fact 'muscle' doesnt mean weight. I don't think any of our pack have a particularly hard edge...I don't mean posturing, I mean physically dominant by that

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Aberavon Wizard
I said a few days ago that it looked to be a wet and windy game which would allow Chiefs to return to their DNA of penalty, lineout, rollover. No, I was told, Exeter don’t play that way anymore……..!
Chiefs were in a hole but they stopped digging this afternoon

Backs as creative as Exeter's are just about unplayable that's why they scored 5 tries today

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herbie85
When BT went to Ali hepher and asked him what's the difference between this week and getting battered by sarries last week, he could have just replied the opposition to save time.

Tbf I think having Ewers and LCD back transforms their pack and it was that which did the damage. Allowed to play as they have traditionally done they're still formidable.

Same old issues, we really are poorly coached in numerous facets of the game and brain dead when it come to decision making and making errors. I know we have injuries but we are a going backwards with a powder puff pack

Thankfully, I don't get to see the games on TV or in person so I rely on what you guys say who do see the games.
Dowson told BBC sport " It is disappointing in lots of ways and all the players feel the same. We didn't get it right today and we need to work out why."
TODAY? How long is it going to take to work out what is wrong, it's been happening most of this season. We have been a second rate side for a couple of seasons now, thank God there is no relegation as I can see us finishing bottom now.
We have some fantastic players (on paper anyway) but week in, week out we are an embarrassment. I've been a supporter for 40 years and this season is becoming one of the worst I've known.

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herbie85
I hate singling out individuals but as a few have already mentioned....how does Mitchell keep getting selected? Decision making appalling, costs us more points than he creates.

Love it when people say they hate doing something and then do the very thing they hate doing!?
Mitchell is in the team because he’s the best 9 currently in the squad.. Agree he’s not at the top of his form at present and agree that Braley and James have shown some good performances recently. However, didn’t think Braley exactly transformed things at 9 when he came on today.
As for Mitchell- most good Saints play involves him at some point - there was a great pass for a try in the second half and what could have been a contender for try of the season with a different bounce/ save the intervention of Hodge. Also, in balance, some mistakes - one of which led to the Slade try. In short he’s a bit like Saints in general - when he good he’s fantastic but prone to the odd error - particularly when pushing the game.
However, don’t we need the most creative expansive players out there on the pitch?
Also think he could do with more protection behind our pack… which is improving but wasn’t on good form today.. missing the beef of Riibbans and Augustus….?

Many have said it before but we need a quality hard nosed forwards to coach to whip us in to shape. That and some front row recruitment will go a long way. Easier said than done I know.

We now know (if we didn't before) why Mitchel is not in the England team. I have said all along that internal promotions do not work and clearly that is the case with Dowson.

I was surprised Hinckley was not in the 23. He is not injured and he would have been playing against his old club which is usually an incentive. His ability to get on his feet following a tackle is next to no one in the team and his scrapping at the breakdown would have been invaluable. It would seem he is rated below Wilkins and Graham by the coaches and yet I feel he offers far more than most at the moment. He was a stand out player for England when 18-20 of age.I suspect he will be brought in against Munster or La Rochelle when our forwards will be outplayed and he will blamed for the loss.The game against Exeter was made for him. He was exceptional at the end of last season when we were winning and has performed well this season when picked.

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Old Bedian

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herbie85
I hate singling out individuals but as a few have already mentioned....how does Mitchell keep getting selected? Decision making appalling, costs us more points than he creates.

Love it when people say they hate doing something and then do the very thing they hate doing!?
Mitchell is in the team because he’s the best 9 currently in the squad.. Agree he’s not at the top of his form at present and agree that Braley and James have shown some good performances recently. However, didn’t think Braley exactly transformed things at 9 when he came on today.
As for Mitchell- most good Saints play involves him at some point - there was a great pass for a try in the second half and what could have been a contender for try of the season with a different bounce/ save the intervention of Hodge. Also, in balance, some mistakes - one of which led to the Slade try. In short he’s a bit like Saints in general - when he good he’s fantastic but prone to the odd error - particularly when pushing the game.
However, don’t we need the most creative expansive players out there on the pitch?
Also think he could do with more protection behind our pack… which is improving but wasn’t on good form today.. missing the beef of Riibbans and Augustus….?

I said it as I don't like calling individuals out when our team was carp overall. He was just the stand out in that in my opinion, you can't structure any kind of game with so many errors in the scrum half position. You have said most of our good play involves him, I don't know many rugby teams that don't have a lot of their play with the 9 heavily involved, so I think naturally it would, but I take your point, when it works it's great, it's just against decent sides with disciplined defences, it generally doesn't. I agree he could do have done with more protection today and Braley wasn't much better. But I think the points still stand he made some awful decisions and execution was poor, I'm not sure the balance of positives outweighs risks at the moment. He is a lot like saints, but there potentially lies the problem. I personally just believe that more structure in the 9/10 positions would benefit us, as opposed to trying to play quickly when it's not always on and forcing things, although that may be more of a DOR/coaching call as opposed to on field.

Anyway, have a good one, let's hope for better next week.

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ajack
Nice to see Boyd at the game and the influence he is still having on the team.

All part of the Club narrative - Boyd was a success. We have a playing philosophy and style that will win at the highest level. He helped develop a first class coaching set up to succeed him. It’s a lie! The fact that he’s still on the payroll is staggering!

We had a great game last week against Quin’s (and yes, I know some will say that was more the Quin’s than us). Look at the table. This is the closest season ever. Newcastle beat Tigers today. There is no easy game. We are 2 points off third. And yes, 8 points off bottom. Relegation, or rather the lack of, has changed the way teams play and how they approach games.
I am incredibly disappointed from today. But I also recognise the good.
We can play some of the best rugby in the league. We also play some of the worst! Saints have ALWAYS struggled to produce 80 minutes. Hell, that game at the millennium stadium still smarts.
I still know that these men put their bodies on the line every week in a way I couldn’t.

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Always2Hopeful
It’s bad enough watching this - but the commentary is making it 1000x worse.

Unless I'm mistaken or was hallucinating, Dallaglio called Ramm Jon Rahm... He has the be the worst pundit/commentator in any sport - embarrassingly bad and offers no insight whatsoever.

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JCDL86

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Always2Hopeful
It’s bad enough watching this - but the commentary is making it 1000x worse.

Unless I'm mistaken or was hallucinating, Dallaglio called Ramm Jon Rahm... He has the be the worst pundit/commentator in any sport - embarrassingly bad and offers no insight whatsoever.

Well I for one found is professional insight invaluable. Especially the bit on ~ 74 minutes when we got a penalty and he said "they'll kick to the corner". I didn't see that coming 🙄

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Boris197
I was surprised Hinckley was not in the 23. He is not injured and he would have been playing against his old club which is usually an incentive. His ability to get on his feet following a tackle is next to no one in the team and his scrapping at the breakdown would have been invaluable. It would seem he is rated below Wilkins and Graham by the coaches and yet I feel he offers far more than most at the moment. He was a stand out player for England when 18-20 of age.I suspect he will be brought in against Munster or La Rochelle when our forwards will be outplayed and he will blamed for the loss.The game against Exeter was made for him. He was exceptional at the end of last season when we were winning and has performed well this season when picked.

I think it could be simpler than that. Sometimes players could be ill or have just recovered from a knock in training - they could be "fit" in the sense they could play but not quite 100%. There have been a handful of games where AH has featured in the 23 and Wilkins/Graham haven't - I wouldn't have placed those 2 above him in the pecking order. There have been times none of them have been in the squad - in which case it's tricky to tell the pecking order!

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Saintsfan22

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Saint Maul
Chalk and cheese their front row compared to ours. I think we’ll miss the physicality Ribbans, Augustus, Courtney, Matavesi and Painter would have brought in windy, wet and dark away conditions. Though I like the physicality Lukhan brought at 6 v Quins. I’m envisaging us trying expansive rugby in the conditions knocking on, conceding scrum penalties turning to kicks to the corner followed by the likes of Ewers barging over.
Hope I’m wrong and we can turn it on like we did v Quins. COYS!!!

I really struggle reading this comment and wonder at what point you and some fans will start to recognise the great work our front row has done under Ferguson over the last year or two.
We are without doubt a top 4 team at the scrum this season and this is not a weakness any longer.
Give the boys and staff the credit they deserve!

Whilst sadly the game turned out largely as I and others predicted with our gameplan playing in Exeter’s hands, the one positive is our scrum did well. I hadn’t picked up our scrum had improved like Saintsfan22 highlighted. So yes, I’d like to say if this continues I was wrong and good on the front row in particular and Ferguson for turning this around.

Our tactics are so naive. We all knew how Exeter would approach the game yet we played right into their hands in conditions not suited to running rugby. This is on the coaches and not the players. The coaches need to recognise that an adjusted smarter gameplan is needed for away games. We have lost all 7 of our away games in the Premiership and Europe this season, often badly. Yet we have won 5 of our 7 home games.

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SaintsDuncan

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JCDL86

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Always2Hopeful
It’s bad enough watching this - but the commentary is making it 1000x worse.

Unless I'm mistaken or was hallucinating, Dallaglio called Ramm Jon Rahm... He has the be the worst pundit/commentator in any sport - embarrassingly bad and offers no insight whatsoever.

Well I for one found is professional insight invaluable. Especially the bit on ~ 74 minutes when we got a penalty and he said "they'll kick to the corner". I didn't see that coming 🙄

Also see: "it never looks good when players need carrying off and can't support their own weight!". Has Rob Baxter cancelled LCD's scan yet? No need... LD has weighed in!

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Saint Maul
We have lost all 7 of our away games in the Premiership and Europe this season, often badly. Yet we have won 5 of our 7 home games.

Imperfect stats as not all teams have played the same amount of games in the Premiership, home and away, but if Saints were only going on their home record this season you'd be third in the table. If you only played away games eleventh. You score the second most points of any team when playing at home and the joint fifth when playing away. You also conceded the second most points of any team at home (behind Bristol) and the most when playing away. You're the second highest point scorers in the League but also the team that has conceded the most.
All of that needs a big pinch of salt as in some cases there's two games difference between how many games teams have played home or away.

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OldMarovian

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Saint Maul
We have lost all 7 of our away games in the Premiership and Europe this season, often badly. Yet we have won 5 of our 7 home games.

Imperfect stats as not all teams have played the same amount of games in the Premiership, home and away, but if Saints were only going on their home record this season you'd be third in the table. If you only played away games eleventh. You score the second most points of any team when playing at home and the joint fifth when playing away. You also conceded the second most points of any team at home (behind Bristol) and the most when playing away. You're the second highest point scorers in the League but also the team that has conceded the most.
All of that needs a big pinch of salt as in some cases there's two games difference between how many games teams have played home or away.

What’s the relevance of what other teams have done? We’re talking about saints and those are the facts/stats relating to saints.

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batty
We now know (if we didn't before) why Mitchel is not in the England team. I have said all along that internal promotions do not work and clearly that is the case with Dowson.

Re: Mitch. The reality is that a lot of supporters will remember his near score following the hack through and will not have noticed the number of times he lost possession and the interception. People see what they want to see and ignore the reality. He is a poor defender and appears not to be able to play beyond 60 minutes.

IMO you should never promote from within to DOR. Familiarity is not a good thing when the hard decisions need to be made.

The last two weeks sum up Saints perfectly. When it works and all comes together we look very good, when it doesn't we look absolutely awful.

The real problem for me at least is we don't look any closer now than we did five years ago to being able to turn a game around or come up with any answers when it is going badly it is simply carry on doing the same thing and get hammered.

I know some find this entertaining rugby, I just find it so frustrating.

If I were an Exeter fan of the mold of a typical Saints fan from this board, I would say don't get excited about a win at home with a near full strength team in dodgy conditions with them missing Matevesi, Lawes, Smith, Augustus and Ribbans. Don't get too excited they did not even have an established fly half playing.

I am disappointed with the performance, I did not expect to win given the above but I was hoping for a better performance than that. I think Mitchell needs a few weeks on the bench with Brailey starting. I also think that Furbs kicking was not good and we needed that in this game. It is good to see a new hooker is signed for next season as Mikey is not the same player anymore. I hate saying that as he is one of my favorite Saintsmen.

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Whiston Saint

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batty
We now know (if we didn't before) why Mitchel is not in the England team. I have said all along that internal promotions do not work and clearly that is the case with Dowson.

Re: Mitch. The reality is that a lot of supporters will remember his near score following the hack through and will not have noticed the number of times he lost possession and the interception. People see what they want to see and ignore the reality. He is a poor defender and appears not to be able to play beyond 60 minutes.

IMO you should never promote from within to DOR. Familiarity is not a good thing when the hard decisions need to be made.

In fairness I thought Alex's defence in the last two games had improved, at least he is sweeping and getting in the right positions, although may not be the best tackler.

Watching him against quins and yesterday I get the feeling that his attacking threat around breakdown is now so well known that clubs mark him and anticipate what he is going to do.
I think he attempted to make 3 snipping runs from breakdown against quins, he was easily brought to ground and on one occasions lost the ball to a turnover.
His crabbing play looking to bring runners on is now easily read.

His passing was really off the mark yesterday, receivers where collecting on their boots or above heads; that's not the position to be in with a fast advancing defensive line.

However, I still think he could be a significant part in Englands future but he really needs a mentor helping with game management
Understanding when to go through his repertore and when to get quick ball through the hands.

Look at Jack VP at Tigers and how his game has improved since Wigglesworth moved there.

@Herbie85
You are right I mean muscle not weight. The intensity to want to own the space, the desire to get there first, the controlled anger in wanting to be better than your opposite number.
Coles is a big guy, someone needs to find the switch that turns that weight into a player with hunger and desire to be better than anyone else.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:08:13:57:45 by Deesaint.

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ajack
The last two weeks sum up Saints perfectly. When it works and all comes together we look very good, when it doesn't we look absolutely awful.
The real problem for me at least is we don't look any closer now than we did five years ago to being able to turn a game around or come up with any answers when it is going badly it is simply carry on doing the same thing and get hammered.

I know some find this entertaining rugby, I just find it so frustrating.

Nail on head.

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Saint Ted
What’s the relevance of what other teams have done? We’re talking about saints and those are the facts/stats relating to saints.

If I understand you rightly Saint Ted it's because some teams have played more games at home than away (or vice-versa) already so when measuring, in table form, where a team might be based on home or away performances in some instances you're comparing teams that have played several more (or fewer) games. So not an equal sample size. Right now for example Tigers have played 8 games away and Sale have played 4 games away (5 once they play Quins shortly)

None of that is relevant, we’re discussing saints and saints form, not comparing it with anything else.

Fair enough Saint Ted.

It watching it wasn't bad enough, the stats make for frustrating reading...

- Tackle success - 90% (to Exe's 81%)
- Scrum pens 6-2 (?) in our favour
- Better lineout than Exe at 75% (still pretty poor and doesn't reflect some that were won lead to terrible ball or resulted in errors)
- Possession 51%; Territory 54%
- More clean breaks, defenders beaten & offloads
- 10 penalties conceded to Exeter's 17

Anyone could be forgiven for thinking we won if they read the above and didn't know the scoreline... The 2nd half performance was better - albeit from a very low bar - but just as frustrating for different reasons! The turning point for me was the Slade intercept with 24 minutes to go. Mitchell would've surely seen Slade in his eyeline, he must've intended a loftier pass over the top and messed up the execution (else the decision/failure to adapt was mad!). With good execution that would've been a 3 on 1 overlap - there's a good chance we score.

At 28-14 with 20+ mins to go, it's a different game. I think we would've scored a bonus point or 2 at least. I wonder if our erratic play when the deficit was 21/28pts would've been tempered if it were 14?

The most disappointing aspect for me was composure and game management after creating a platform that should've got us back into the game. Of the 17 pens Exeter conceded, 3 resulted in quick taps (2 from Mitchell and 1 from Collins) that failed to have a positive impact and Braley's terrible/rushed kick missed touch. The ones involving Mitchell would've been 5m lineouts I think (or at least deep into their 22). It's a shame the QT's didn't illicit a tackle within 10m and a yellow card, because they were all wrong decisions! Those were a few examples from penalties. There were of course bad decisions in open play as well - Freeman getting turned over was only 35s before their 2nd try.

Would agree with much of what is said above.
We keep hearing it is down to the pack but we were the better side in the lineout, an area some seem convinced Exeter build their game around and more than held our own at scrum time.
With Freeman getting turned over running the ball when it is not on, Dingwall taking a player out in the air and Mitchell blowing a four on two giving away an interception we gifted them 21 points. You simply don't win games against opposition of that quality doing that.
We have been doing this for years now and show no desire to stop doing it.

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ajack
Would agree with much of what is said above.
We keep hearing it is down to the pack but we were the better side in the lineout, an area some seem convinced Exeter build their game around and more than held our own at scrum time.
With Freeman getting turned over running the ball when it is not on, Dingwall taking a player out in the air and Mitchell blowing a four on two giving away an interception we gifted them 21 points. You simply don't win games against opposition of that quality doing that.
We have been doing this for years now and show no desire to stop doing it.

Having said that, with all the failings listed above, if wasps had not been relegated we would be 4 points clear of 3rd. It is fine margins and considering we bring on players from within rather than spending big bucks, we aren't far off.

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SaintsAsh

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ajack
Would agree with much of what is said above.
We keep hearing it is down to the pack but we were the better side in the lineout, an area some seem convinced Exeter build their game around and more than held our own at scrum time.
With Freeman getting turned over running the ball when it is not on, Dingwall taking a player out in the air and Mitchell blowing a four on two giving away an interception we gifted them 21 points. You simply don't win games against opposition of that quality doing that.

We have been doing this for years now and show no desire to stop doing it.

Having said that, with all the failings listed above, if wasps had not been relegated we would be 4 points clear of 3rd. It is fine margins and considering we bring on players from within rather than spending big bucks, we aren't far off.

I wouldn't know about that. I would never claim to know the results of a series of games that never actually happened. How exactly do you know the results of the Wasps matches that didn't happen ?
As for not spending the big bucks, how much less are we spending compared to other clubs?

Ajack - it was never a question of being convinced that Chiefs built their current game around a certain style. The hypothesis was that Exeter, not doing as well as they might expect, would return to the style of rugby around which much of their previous success was based - in simple terms, if it’s not working then go back to basics. Yesterday was not easy weather wise and was not perhaps a day for throwing the ball around. Three of the Chiefs tries were short range stuff whilst the other two were down to aberrations by Freeman and Mitchell. The likes of Hodge, Nowell and Woodburn were always going to be a handful especially the young full back who was not scared to run from his own twenty-two.

I was pleasantly surprised how our scrum held up especially in the second half and whilst our line-out stats may have been better than the home side, we still have a tendency to screw up attacking line-outs close to the opposition line and this has been the case for a long time.

I thought our biggest failing yesterday was our tactical kicking. Whether with or against the wind we contrived to lose field position. This was particularly so in the first half when we really needed to keep them out of our red zone. When kicking into the wind Exeter kicked low and into space looking for a lucky bounce or a mistake to gift them an advantage. We simply hoofed it into their arms inviting a return. It was also obvious that Chief kick chase was better than ours too.
I think we got a poor return from the assistant refs, it’s hard to be certain from the tv camera angles but I thought Chiefs were allowed to get away with advancing well forward of the offside line much of the time too.
On a positive note we scrummaged well by and large matched chiefs setpiece play. But, we gifted them too much territory, allowed them to play their short game and got the result we deserved

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Old Bedian

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herbie85
I hate singling out individuals but as a few have already mentioned....how does Mitchell keep getting selected? Decision making appalling, costs us more points than he creates.

Love it when people say they hate doing something and then do the very thing they hate doing!?
Mitchell is in the team because he’s the best 9 currently in the squad.. Agree he’s not at the top of his form at present and agree that Braley and James have shown some good performances recently. However, didn’t think Braley exactly transformed things at 9 when he came on today.
As for Mitchell- most good Saints play involves him at some point - there was a great pass for a try in the second half and what could have been a contender for try of the season with a different bounce/ save the intervention of Hodge. Also, in balance, some mistakes - one of which led to the Slade try. In short he’s a bit like Saints in general - when he good he’s fantastic but prone to the odd error - particularly when pushing the game.
However, don’t we need the most creative expansive players out there on the pitch?
Also think he could do with more protection behind our pack… which is improving but wasn’t on good form today.. missing the beef of Riibbans and Augustus….?

Mitchell seems to have morphed into Ben Youngs, far too many pointless kicks. Mitchell is a good player but out of form at the moment, he looks as if he is trying too hard. The trip to Munster is pointless as we are out of Europe so give him the weekend off

We aren't out of Europe just yet, technically we could still qualify for the main comp and getting to a position where we are in the Challenge cup is still within our grasp.

There has been the occasion where the chips are down and saints pull an unlikely European win out the bag, do that at Munster, followed by a visit from La Rochelle the week after, who by that point will have probably qualified with a home fixture for the next round so will send over a reserve squad.

I may or may not be writing this to justify the expense of the trip to Munster just after Christmas!

Dear god there's some hyperbole here - we weren't as good as we looked last week and not as poor as we looked this week. Yes we could have been better but when Exeter have the weather, home advantage and the officials its a pretty perfect storm to try and play any rugby against. All teams push things but the way they enter rucks is going to end careers eventually which is far more important than the result of any single game.
Mitchell is one of the best scrum halves around, not perfect yet but as with all things I think we need to look wider - he will always draw defenders but in order for that to work (rather than him getting nailed by some ogre) there needs to be players running lines around to either put through a hole or they make the hole and he takes it. I would absolutely agree that he (and not just him) gets drawn into trying to force things too early.

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LeicesterSaint
Yes we could have been better but when Exeter have the weather, home advantage and the officials its a pretty perfect storm to try and play any rugby against. All teams push things but the way they enter rucks is going to end careers eventually which is far more important than the result of any single game.

Good grief that is bit OTT isn't it. Yes Exeter had home advantage we play 50% of our games away from home. They had the weather, what does that mean? The weather was exactly as it had been predicted all week, pretty much the same as all teams played in over the weekend. In January and February in England and especially on the coast there is a pretty good chance of wind and rain any team that cannot deal with that has serious problems. As for having the referee how exactly? I believe the penalty count was 17-10 in our favour, there were no big decisions that went against us. How exactly do they enter rucks any differently to all sides. I certainly never noticed it and I never heard or read anyone else picking up on it on either the TV or in the press.