Saints v Falcons 21st April 2023

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:04:28:08:50:25 by Saint Ted.

Big thanks to Chris Hoddle for doing the original thread, teams up on a Thursday throws me!

Very strong team, we really have a very decent XV, it's literally just the props that are holding us up (no pun intended). Our back row and back 3 are as good as any in the prem.

I have a feeling this might go to the wire

Concerned about the lack of physicality in our backs against 3 argies and Radwan. The forwards need to step up here and win the battle up front.

Some rain predicted in the morning but should be dry afternoon onwards for kick off. About 7 degrees so not freezing. Both should help in our try bonus quest.

Our away record is a worry. But we are fighting for top 4 against the bottom team. If we don’t win then we don’t really deserve to be in the top 4.

COYS!!!

Looks like a strong team, though that's doesn't always translate and I fear a Falcons team playing purely to entertain. Some of our best performances have been in dead rubbers.

Whilst injuries are likely a factor in TC's selection, I'm delighted to see him starting in what could be our last game of the season. A wonderful servant, I hope that his desire to prolong our season and get a better attended send off keeps us in the fight. Without space, he can be rag-dolled but equally he is one of our few "something from nothing" players. It'll be a real test of his pace to finish a chip and chase against Newcastle's back three though. Go well TC.

Same sentiments for Ribbans. People are understandably upset that a newly capped, first team regular is off to pastures cash but I continue to be impressed by his absolute professionalism and body-busting carries post announcement. He's given us a lot. Rugby can be a short career with head injuries and bone breaks. Northamptonshire isn't a great place to live for a 27 year old athlete at the peak of their powers when they have no real roots or connection to the area. For me, he'll go down as another outstanding Saints lock who always gave his all.

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FommyTreeman
Looks like a strong team, though that's doesn't always translate and I fear a Falcons team playing purely to entertain. Some of our best performances have been in dead rubbers.
Whilst injuries are likely a factor in TC's selection, I'm delighted to see him starting in what could be our last game of the season. A wonderful servant, I hope that his desire to prolong our season and get a better attended send off keeps us in the fight. Without space, he can be rag-dolled but equally he is one of our few "something from nothing" players. It'll be a real test of his pace to finish a chip and chase against Newcastle's back three though. Go well TC.

Same sentiments for Ribbans. People are understandably upset that a newly capped, first team regular is off to pastures cash but I continue to be impressed by his absolute professionalism and body-busting carries post announcement. He's given us a lot. Rugby can be a short career with head injuries and bone breaks. Northamptonshire isn't a great place to live for a 27 year old athlete at the peak of their powers when they have no real roots or connection to the area. For me, he'll go down as another outstanding Saints lock who always gave his all.

Absolutely. Can't knock the fella for being good at what he does and getting a big offer to live in a much nicer part of the world. Power to him, our loss.

In my former professional life I travelled to Newcastle many, many times. Sometimes by air, occasionally by rail but more often than not in a hire car or chartered coach. I’ve been reading that Premiership football teams are under scrutiny for flying to away games - I think it was either Liverpool or Man Utd who flew into East Midlands to play Notts Forest !

So my question is, in these difficult financial time’s , will Saints have travelled up today ( Friday ) for the Newcastle game or will they have gone up on Thursday for a night in a hotel ?

Just wondering !

On the Saints show, Phil Dowson said they were going by bus on Thursday and staying overnight.

Hello NGSB,
Phil Dowson said on the Saints Show on Wednesday that they were going up in a coach on Thursday. They did joke about the possibility of hopping on a plane!

Thanks for the replies gents - that would make sense to me. I remember sharing hotels up there with various Football and Cricket teams in the past.

Unfortunately possibility of rain has increased. Hopefully it arrives after the game.

Well as (I think) Chris Hoddle suggested Sarries have gone pretty much full on for our home game against LI so up to Saints to get the result at Falcons to put yourselves in the best position. Good luck it's a hard place to go on a wet Friday night and both team sheets look good.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Well as (I think) Chris Hoddle suggested Sarries have gone pretty much full on for our home game against LI so up to Saints to get the result at Falcons to put yourselves in the best position. Good luck it's a hard place to go on a wet Friday night and both team sheets look good.

Win tonight and we really should make top 4. Sarries have done us a huge favour with choosing a virtual full strength side to play London Irish:

1 Mako Vunipola
2 Theo Dan
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Maro Itoje
5 Callum Hunter-Hill
6 Nick Isiekwe
7 Ben Earl
8 Jackson Wray
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Owen Farrell (c)
11 Sean Maitland
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Max Malins
15 Alex Goode

Replacements:

16 Ethan Lewis
17 Eroni Mawi
18 Christian Judge
19 Hugh Tizard
20 Toby Knight
21 Ruben de Haas
22 Olly Hartley
23 Rotimi Segun

Always loved saracens

Irish fans seem to think they have a voodoo spell over Sarries……..

I expect Irish to pick up at least 1 point, and if it becomes a little loose, then 2.

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Saint Sharky
I expect Irish to pick up at least 1 point, and if it becomes a little loose, then 2.

If we get a try bonus win (appreciating IF) then Irish have to win both remaining games.

Good start. Radwan in the corner following some poor kicking.

Straight back at them - Mitchell in under the posts.

Has anyone noticed the recent phase of the ref stating that "there are offside lines"?

Then why doesn't he ref them?!?

Why do keep kicking rubbish

Can we re-sign TC?

There ‘s No substitute for speeeeeed

When was the last time we jackaled?... Successfully



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:04:21:20:07:25 by Stokey.

Who is this young fellow Collins? Tries, tackling, kick like a Howitzer.

Hutchinson's defence is totally absent. Its like he does his very best to be nowhere near a tackle.

Bonus point achieved!

That was a good first half
Very enjoyable
Let’s keep it going

very good start. Just hope we don't stop playing, got to keep the same tempo against a decent falcons back 3. Halfway there.

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Helmet and sack
Hutchinson's defence is totally absent. Its like he does his very best to be nowhere near a tackle.

Probably trying to reduce his missed tackle count

Great first half, need an 80 min performance.

Winning the collisions. That’s all we have to do to have a very good chance of winning games. Easier said than done but it’s mainly psychological.

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Stokey

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Helmet and sack
Hutchinson's defence is totally absent. Its like he does his very best to be nowhere near a tackle.

Probably trying to reduce his missed tackle count

It really disturbs me how he always wants to appear so casual with ball in hand and then makes an unenforced error as a result. Quiet so far from him and Dingwall.

After Hill scored, Carreras jumped on his arm. No card ref?

Quote:

Stokey
After Hill scored, Carreras jumped on his arm. No card ref?

He jumped on the ball in fairness.

Great start to the second half. Keep it up lads.

Didn’t know which way it would go with Newcastle, last game of the season, no pressure and all that. Luckily they have tried to play us at our own game.
Yes, it is often correctly said we want to play Harlem Globetrotters rugby. But you can’t beat the Harlem Globetrotters by playing like the Harlem Globetrotters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:04:21:21:13:10 by St. Andy.

Great display by Saints. Troubled by Falcons wingers occasionally but a breeze apart from that. Ludlam pops up time after time in wide channels causing damage and I’ve rarely seen Collins have a bad game. Smith looks excellent. I suspect you will rarely have things your own way as much at the breakdown as tonight but you can only beat what’s in front of you and that was done comprehensively.

That is a brilliant performance and result. Just what we needed to see. Fingers crossed Saracens do the business on Sunday. 5 weeks off could be a bit of a leveller for the semi….

The pack dominated that game
On top for 80 minutes

Such an easy game 😂😂

Great game. The one we’ve been waiting for for a long, long time. Newcastle gave us the most space we’ve had in a while - we had the opportunity to run so many moves, which is great for confidence. Just got to bottle it for a month.

Only sour point was Boyd being there, patronising everyone.* 😅

How do we get TC to change his mind?

That’ll do pig, that’ll do!!

Fabulous performance! Proper intensity for the whole game, we really wanted that. Onto our final with sarries. Let's throw the absolute kitchen sink at them.

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Saint Maul

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Saint Sharky
I expect Irish to pick up at least 1 point, and if it becomes a little loose, then 2.

If we get a try bonus win (appreciating IF) then Irish have to win both remaining games.

Not quite true.
A draw for Irish with 4 tries would give them 3 points and get them within 4 points of Saints with a game to go.
Unlikely but possible.

Job done and a performance we have been demanding. Dominated up front, breakdown and setpiece for the full 80. We didn't start leaking tries as we are prone to which I'm happy with and upset with last week.

Also, get Lawes signed! He is worth it all day long!! I also wonder with games like this, Ribbans feels he's made the wrong decision? Enjoying your rugby and have opportunities for England should outweigh the payday.

Also, Mitchell must now be a starter for England. He was electric!

A huge smile on my face after that performance. Well done lads.

That tackle of the season by Alex Mitchell was as pleasing as any try.

A brilliant send off for Tom Collins.

Now just hugely nervous about the Sarries Irish game!

Fantastic full match performance - possibly the best of the season in how complete it was throughout with only the odd miss tackle and error. Keeping Newcastle to 5pts with their back three is a real achievement. Yes Newcastle struggled with their physicality, didn't challenge at the breakdown or get much defensive line speed. But in large part that was because of the speed at which saints played and the decision making, accuracy and pace in attack.

If Sarries win on Sunday and we play like that in the semi and we stand a chance.

Also this team is still young and will get even better but we have to find a way to maintain physicality- Augustus and Lawes with Ludlam are so important - we have to find a way to keep at least two of them and ideally all 3 to keep challenging.

Mitchell is getting better and better and think it's his speed of ball and danger around the ruck that gives us the space and time to play this style of game (which people should give some credit to Boyd for creating however much he frustratingly neglected our defence and set piece). And Finn Smith is really embracing this style of play and looking like the signing of the year across the premiership, particularly when he's so young.

It is a shame TC is going, a saints through and through and he's finally meeting the potential we all thought he had at the start. But he is our 4th choice winger unless we start Ramm over Furbank at FB so i understand his reasoning. I just would have loved to keep Ramm and Furbank and Freeman, Sleights and TC it's a potentially world class combination.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:04:21:22:48:55 by Saintfanh.

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Saint Maul
A huge smile on my face after that performance. Well done lads.
That tackle of the season by Alex Mitchell was as pleasing as any try.

A brilliant send off for Tom Collins.

Now just hugely nervous about the Sarries Irish game!

+

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chappers_saint
Job done and a performance we have been demanding. Dominated up front, breakdown and setpiece for the full 80. We didn't start leaking tries as we are prone to which I'm happy with and upset with last week.
Also, get Lawes signed! He is worth it all day long!! I also wonder with games like this, Ribbans feels he's made the wrong decision? Enjoying your rugby and have opportunities for England should outweigh the payday.

Also, Mitchell must now be a starter for England. He was electric!

* new life experience in southern France, better weather and food, nice beaches up the road, more salary? Who cares about England after the above

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Saint Maul

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Saint Sharky
I expect Irish to pick up at least 1 point, and if it becomes a little loose, then 2.

If we get a try bonus win (appreciating IF) then Irish have to win both remaining games.

Or draw with Sarries with a TBP and get 5 versus Chiefs - so a tough ask ...

Irish would be 4th on goal diff with a 2pt loss and a 5pt win



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:04:22:00:55:50 by Scrumpy Half.

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Scrumpy Half
Irish would be 4th on goal diff with a 2pt loss and a 5pt win

They'd have one less win than us, so would miss out on that basis.

Ah cheers forgot that was the criteria

Still not quite sure what to make of that!

Very enjoyable to watch - from a Saintly point of view.

I think overall, I am most pleased with just 5 points scored against us. Better late than never.

This was a classic example of a team giving us time and space, not pressing us or being more physical or well organised than us.

Any team that does that risks us putting in a top notch performance like that.

Our problem for a while has not been how good we can be on a good day, it is how bad we are on a bad day and finding answers to teams that press us hard or outthink or outmuscle us.

But that was pretty damn impressive admittedly against a team that didn't look they they cared.

For me the difference was that we didn't throw 50:50 offloads and looked after the ball in contact. I don't know if that was down to a rethink on tactics or the paucity of opposition last night. I hope it was the former and that we have found a happy medium of attacking rugby and pragmatism.

The new winger/centre must be pretty good to allow us to let TC go to Irish.

A great watch for your Saintly folk. Some absolutely cracking attacking rugby and having talked about Mitchells defence that particular try-saver was right out of the top draw.

Possibly the only slight concern would be that the past two games haven't really tested Saints in the way you'd perhaps have wanted? That said if you go further there's no doubting you've the players and skills to cause any team issue with your attack.

Fair enough about ‘testing’ as no doubt the next game against Sarries will prove far more challenging

However I would say that winning and winning in the way the team did yesterday can only boost confidence
Something we seem to have lacked

Previously players seem to have stood off almost waiting for someone else to do something

Yesterday it seemed everyone wanted to make the tackle or get their hands on the ball

I hope they can carry that attitude through to the next game ( obviously relys on LI) if so I don’t think it will be a walk in for Sarries

Never easy to win at Newcastle and to do so as comfortably as we did was a very good performance. The top teams won't be so passive at the breakdown and will have much quicker line speed to put us under pressure, but if things go our way and we get into the semi we'll be full of confidence and in a one off game anything can happen.

Quote:

Deesaint
I hope they can carry that attitude through to the next game ( obviously relys on LI) if so I don’t think it will be a walk in for Sarries

Agree 100% on the attitude and the value of that confidence, also both that the Tomorrows game is far from given (LI are a team we have struggled with, that means lost to! numerous times the past few seasons) also I don't think any Sarries supporter is taking anything for granted no matter who we meet in the SF.

I’m sure for one day
And one day only
Most Saints supporters will be wanting Sarries to win 😳

Come on Sarri…….ants

Haven’t got it yet
Will keep trying 😂

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OldMarovian

Quote:

Deesaint
I hope they can carry that attitude through to the next game ( obviously relys on LI) if so I don’t think it will be a walk in for Sarries

Agree 100% on the attitude and the value of that confidence, also both that the Tomorrows game is far from given (LI are a team we have struggled with, that means lost to! numerous times the past few seasons) also I don't think any Sarries supporter is taking anything for granted no matter who we meet in the SF.

Have to hope Saracens do their job.
You know, I was wondering about our usual switching off and letting the other team through our midfield. Well, I watched a replay last night and we did indeed shut down for a while. But this time it was at the start when Radwan - and others - tore through our midfield defense. Nuke were only good enough to take advantage for one try, but better teams would have done better. In fact, Radwan was inches away from a second try. If we didn't shut it down by the second quarter, it would have been more of a battle. It wasn't only Radwan, their backline had the pop to do better. Hutch was particularly un-good defensively.

I feel far more confident with Proctor and Dingwall at centres
Hutch is the very essence of you score 5 we will score 6 ethos

Looking forward to seeing our SA centre next year

I enjoyed the fact Saints did not relax very much when the game really was won. Replacements did well making a genuine eighty minute performance……well, seventy seven anyway !

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NGSB
I enjoyed the fact Saints did not relax very much when the game really was won. Replacements did well making a genuine eighty minute performance……well, seventy seven anyway !

Definitely. Defence seemed much more important to the players yesterday, way more vocal when defending and much more effort on tracking back for the 50/50s. Hopefully in the 5 week turn around (should we qualify) we can enhance our defence even further.

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Saint Sharky

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NGSB
I enjoyed the fact Saints did not relax very much when the game really was won. Replacements did well making a genuine eighty minute performance……well, seventy seven anyway !

Definitely. Defence seemed much more important to the players yesterday, way more vocal when defending and much more effort on tracking back for the 50/50s. Hopefully in the 5 week turn around (should we qualify) we can enhance our defence even further.

The plus of a longer break is Saints can work on things, like the 'D' (needs to be in CAPS now) and to get everyone healthy. no excuse for not having the best side we can out there. On the down side, too long without games can make players rusty.

If that defensive performance was from Vesty's limited input, then that's quite an exciting prospect. There was 100% more hunger.

I think we're a little unfair on Hutch in terms of his defence. He may not be the most defensively minded player but it has improved. His focus is clearly on the attack and that then begs the question, do you pick a player based upon what they do well or drop them based upon what they don't?

Imho, Hutch is our most creative player. He's the one that seems to unlock our attack and I wonder, without him, how many fewer tries would we have scored? Of course the argument could also be how many fewer tries would we have conceded.

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St Stokey.
I think we're a little unfair on Hutch in terms of his defence. He may not be the most defensively minded player but it has improved. His focus is clearly on the attack and that then begs the question, do you pick a player based upon what they do well or drop them based upon what they don't?
Imho, Hutch is our most creative player. He's the one that seems to unlock our attack and I wonder, without him, how many fewer tries would we have scored? Of course the argument could also be how many fewer tries would we have conceded.

Doesn't that just sum up rugby? If you attack the breakdown you will more ball but are defensively struggling if you don't win it, the same with lineouts, interceptions the list goes on and on. If there was a right or wrong answer all teams would do the same and what might work best against one team might not work against another. That balance is so key.

On balance I don’t think his high skills make up for the lack of physicality, decision making and defence

Until Proctor got injured Hutch was coming off the bench. I suspect the coaches recognise his skill set is attack biased but I thought that aside from the Carreras episode he did his defensive job pretty well on Friday.
Just looking at our side over the last few games I’d make the following observations:-
Halfback pairing - top four material and starting to really work
Midfield - above average but prone to the odd lapse
Back three - as good as any other in the prem
Front row - scrum much better, not the weak link it was
Locks - above average but we need an enforcer
Back row - top notch with Courts and Luds
Bench - Not sure we have quite the depth of fire power to be nailed on top 4
So on balance I think the ingredients are pretty good, and when we get our headspace fully engaged we’re a very decent team. What we desperately lack is consistency.

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Sir Hector
Until Proctor got injured Hutch was coming off the bench. I suspect the coaches recognise his skill set is attack biased but I thought that aside from the Carreras episode he did his defensive job pretty well on Friday.
Just looking at our side over the last few games I’d make the following observations:-
Halfback pairing - top four material and starting to really work
Midfield - above average but prone to the odd lapse
Back three - as good as any other in the prem
Front row - scrum much better, not the weak link it was
Locks - above average but we need an enforcer
Back row - top notch with Courts and Luds
Bench - Not sure we have quite the depth of fire power to be nailed on top 4
So on balance I think the ingredients are pretty good, and when we get our headspace fully engaged we’re a very decent team. What we desperately lack is consistency.

I'd agree with your assessment. There are a few factors that'll determine how well we do next season IMHO:

Lawes' future - and if he departs, whether he's replaced adequately or not.

Defence - if Vesty has taken over aspects of coaching there, will improvements continue to be made (or will Vass depart in the summer with a new defence coach arriving?). Will any other changes be made in the coaching or S&C teams?

Vesty - if Evans is staying at Quins, who will England recruit as attack coach?

Recruitment - when finalised, will the squad be smaller/weaker? Will we be more reliant on the academy/squad players? Will there be any unexpected departures - if so, will they be replaced with similar quality?

Academy - We've seen around 10 academy graduates become regulars in the squad over the last 5 years, but few have emerged recently. Are we expecting any breakthroughs next season? Hopefully Iyogan will come back strong next season and remain fit (that's even more vital if no more LHs are being signed).

And then there's the usual - good luck on the injuries front and coping well during international periods.

Nice summary there, Hector.
I'd love to see a new defence coach and lineout/forwards coach as well as some changes in S&C department. I think these are our weak links, we have a relatively food squad to be honest, but lack in coaching personnel.

Our back three and back row are up there with the best in the prem.

I don’t think the back row has shown itself to be up there yet. On paper, absolutely.

Possibly lacks an out and out 7 at the breakdown, but defensively and on the gain line they're all fantastic.

There might not need to be a change in coaching at all - It might not be Vass being a poor defence coach, just that Vesty had a stronger voice and attack was being prioritised. The change could be Vesty and Vass working together to see how they can strengthen defence while still giving attacking opportunities. We saw similar at scrum time. We basically have the same players but Furgusson was given licence to fix the issues and add more focus. They are also young coaches, they migth be improving like the players.

If thats not true then changes might be needed but all over the park we keep seeing year on year improvements. But are they fast enough?

I am quite pleased with where we are right now - the question is can we make that step up from here to finallists/competetive in europe with what we have.

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Duckonstilts
There might not need to be a change in coaching at all - It might not be Vass being a poor defence coach, just that Vesty had a stronger voice and attack was being prioritised. The change could be Vesty and Vass working together to see how they can strengthen defence while still giving attacking opportunities. We saw similar at scrum time. We basically have the same players but Furgusson was given licence to fix the issues and add more focus. They are also young coaches, they migth be improving like the players.
If thats not true then changes might be needed but all over the park we keep seeing year on year improvements. But are they fast enough?

I am quite pleased with where we are right now - the question is can we make that step up from here to finallists/competetive in europe with what we have.

Fair points - I think Ferguson is doing a decent job with his resources and often doesn't get the credit he deserves (it's only weeks since some people were calling for his head!). I'm still not sure if IV can improve in the same manner though - and if his contract ends in June, it's hard to justify a new one.

I agree. I'm not happy where we are. Very pleased we're in the top four but losing virtually all the away games and highest points count against us by far. And playing poorly in a lot of games with frequent handling errors, soft penalties and lineouts a lottery.

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aecgda
I agree. I'm not happy where we are. Very pleased we're in the top four but losing virtually all the away games and highest points count against us by far. And playing poorly in a lot of games with frequent handling errors, soft penalties and lineouts a lottery.

Could not agree more. To me, Saints are a mid-tier team (a lot of company there) with a lot of upside.

I've not looked up the stats but it seemed to me that there were very few penalties and scrums in the game and there has been little discussion about how this may have contributed to the result.

Mitchell's tackle on Radwan was for me the second best tackle I saw all season. The best was Dupont on Hansen.

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Santiago
I've not looked up the stats but it seemed to me that there were very few penalties and scrums in the game and there has been little discussion about how this may have contributed to the result.
Mitchell's tackle on Radwan was for me the second best tackle I saw all season. The best was Dupont on Hansen.

As you said there were indeed very few pens in the entire match. Per stats on ESPN Saints conceded only 6 pens, but Newcastle conceded only 4, though one was their yellow.