Saints v Sale 15th October 2023 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:10:20:08:42:00 by Saint Ted.

A lot of injuries and unavailabilities.

No place in the 23 for Paul Hill.

All over the pitch, defensively this team looks very light, and the opposite of Gnarly. I think we are going to get tonked, but love to be proved wrong!

I’m a bit more optimistic than that HammerSaint. Not our strongest side but looks like our strongest available side.

Can see the bench making a difference here, and I like ours. Plus it suits us to be visiting Sale (have I missed the annual Enya Game mirth?) on what’s predicted to be a dry bright Sunday afternoon rather than a wet Friday evening.

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HammerSaint
All over the pitch, defensively this team looks very light, and the opposite of Gnarly. I think we are going to get tonked, but love to be proved wrong!

My view D=Defense A= Attack
15 George Hendy D5 A8
14 Tommy Freeman D8 A9
13 Fraser Dingwall (c) D8 A7
12 Rory Hutchinson D4 A9
11 James Ramm D8 A9
10 Fin Smith D6 A8
9 Tom James D6 A7

1 Ethan Waller D4 A4
2 Curtis Langdon D8 A8
3 Trevor Davison D8 A6
4 Alex Moon D7 A5
5 Alex Coles D5 A5
6 Angus Scott-Young D7 A5
7 Tom Pearson D9 A9
8 Sam Graham D9 A7

What's the story with Sleightholme is it an error as an omission from the the not available for selection. Ramm at fullback Seabrook on the wing would have been my preference.

I’m not sure it’s the backs that matter. We need a big game from the front eight if we are to have any chance of getting some points from this fixture. Time to show off your nasty side boys, and some real dog too! COYS

Sale also have a good few players missing, did Cowan-Dickie end up at Sale, so much went on seem to have lost track. In saying that quite a formidable front row.

As said above, forwards will make or break this one. Need to make that extra weight pay.

Weather showing sunny following a few days of rain, hopefully work in our favour.

Realistically a bonus point or two, but keeping Sale's try count to a maximum of 2 with some improved dogged defence will be a worthwhile return.

I fear Saints are in for a whooping on Sunday - that’s a good looking Sale line up and we don’t often come away from Salford with much.

Quote:

HammerSaint

Quote:

HammerSaint
All over the pitch, defensively this team looks very light, and the opposite of Gnarly. I think we are going to get tonked, but love to be proved wrong!

My view D=Defense A= Attack
15 George Hendy D5 A8
14 Tommy Freeman D8 A9
13 Fraser Dingwall (c) D8 A7
12 Rory Hutchinson D4 A9
11 James Ramm D8 A9
10 Fin Smith D6 A8
9 Tom James D6 A7

1 Ethan Waller D4 A4
2 Curtis Langdon D8 A8
3 Trevor Davison D8 A6
4 Alex Moon D7 A5
5 Alex Coles D5 A5
6 Angus Scott-Young D7 A5
7 Tom Pearson D9 A9
8 Sam Graham D9 A7

What are you scores out of? How have you quantified these ratings?

Quote:

St Stokey.

Quote:

HammerSaint

Quote:

HammerSaint
All over the pitch, defensively this team looks very light, and the opposite of Gnarly. I think we are going to get tonked, but love to be proved wrong!

My view D=Defense A= Attack
15 George Hendy D5 A8
14 Tommy Freeman D8 A9
13 Fraser Dingwall (c) D8 A7
12 Rory Hutchinson D4 A9
11 James Ramm D8 A9
10 Fin Smith D6 A8
9 Tom James D6 A7

1 Ethan Waller D4 A4
2 Curtis Langdon D8 A8
3 Trevor Davison D8 A6
4 Alex Moon D7 A5
5 Alex Coles D5 A5
6 Angus Scott-Young D7 A5
7 Tom Pearson D9 A9
8 Sam Graham D9 A7

What are you scores out of? How have you quantified these ratings?

Scores out of 53, what do you think? I have quantified the ratings from the best possible source, which is IMO!

Quote:

HammerSaint

Quote:

St Stokey.

Quote:

HammerSaint

Quote:

HammerSaint
All over the pitch, defensively this team looks very light, and the opposite of Gnarly. I think we are going to get tonked, but love to be proved wrong!

My view D=Defense A= Attack
15 George Hendy D5 A8
14 Tommy Freeman D8 A9
13 Fraser Dingwall (c) D8 A7
12 Rory Hutchinson D4 A9
11 James Ramm D8 A9
10 Fin Smith D6 A8
9 Tom James D6 A7

1 Ethan Waller D4 A4
2 Curtis Langdon D8 A8
3 Trevor Davison D8 A6
4 Alex Moon D7 A5
5 Alex Coles D5 A5
6 Angus Scott-Young D7 A5
7 Tom Pearson D9 A9
8 Sam Graham D9 A7

What are you scores out of? How have you quantified these ratings?

Scores out of 53, what do you think? I have quantified the ratings from the best possible source, which is IMO!

Quote:

HammerSaint

Quote:

St Stokey.

Quote:

HammerSaint

Quote:

HammerSaint
All over the pitch, defensively this team looks very light, and the opposite of Gnarly. I think we are going to get tonked, but love to be proved wrong!

My view D=Defense A= Attack
15 George Hendy D5 A8
14 Tommy Freeman D8 A9
13 Fraser Dingwall (c) D8 A7
12 Rory Hutchinson D4 A9
11 James Ramm D8 A9
10 Fin Smith D6 A8
9 Tom James D6 A7

1 Ethan Waller D4 A4
2 Curtis Langdon D8 A8
3 Trevor Davison D8 A6
4 Alex Moon D7 A5
5 Alex Coles D5 A5
6 Angus Scott-Young D7 A5
7 Tom Pearson D9 A9
8 Sam Graham D9 A7

What are you scores out of? How have you quantified these ratings?

Scores out of 53, what do you think? I have quantified the ratings from the best possible source, which is IMO!

good one. No need to be a d***

I would have presumed out of 10 considering the Attack scores you've awarded and it being a side that scored the most tries in the league last season.

My confusion was that for a team that you describe as being "very light, and the opposite of Gnarly", you seem to have given some very high scores in terms of defence. Hutchinson and Hendy aside, all our backs have scored above average, the lowest two being players that you would normally not expect to be your most defensive team members.

The forwards also have surprisingly high scores. Alex Coles seems to be harshly marked. He's good enough to have been selected for England but less Attacking or Defensively able than our Tighthead.
Alex Moon was the top tackler in the league last season but has a defensive score of 7. Tom Pearson and Sam Graham both have 9.

It is an interesting approach that you've taken. Would you be able to do a comparison from the Sale team?

I'd also ask whether these scores are global or versus expectation in that position? For example (a few notable exceptions aside) your tighthead is not likely to be the most threatening attacking runner in the side but will usually do a big share of defensive graft. Also, are we looking at defence in terms of tackling only or also looking at maul defence (unlikely to feature much for backs!), counter-rucking, turnovers etc?

Is Finn Smith for example as a 6/10 defensively just above average overall or is he just above average for a fly half? Is Langdon one of the best attacking hookers (8/10) or one of the best attackers in the league full stop?

ethan should be alex. mc parland certainly deserved a start.chunya munga should be starting aswell.ramm at fullback seabrook on the wing .not a very convincing side at all.nothing has changed i hope im wrong but that side is so conservative do we want to win games.

Maybe I’m betraying my inner optimist, but I’m a lot more positive about this than most on here.

I know teams are different than the sum of their parts. And that may be where saints fall down.

But on the individuals, I think most impartial observers would call the head to heads like this:

15. Sale
14. Saints
13. Saints
12. Saints
11. Saints
10. Draw
9. Sale
8. Sale
7. Saints
6. Sale
5. Sale
4. Saints
3. Draw
2. Saints
1. Sale

Which if you give half points for a draw, sees saints with 8 points, and sale on 7.

My point being that this weakened sale team isn’t miles better than saints. So if we lose, it’s because they are better organised. Or because of home advantage.

Man for man we have looked as good as most sides for a while now, we just don't perform very well as a team, especially against teams that play a very structured game.
The idea of scoring players defensively and offensively is interesting. As mentioned do you mark a ten on his ability to tackle and if you do how sound is your game plan if you have your ten making lots of tackles?
Probably the thing that struck me was how low the attack numbers were and how high the defence were. As one of the top point scorers but also top point conceders I would expect a bigger difference.

I think my ratings are being taken a tad too seriously and too forensic, they are just my opinion, but it's more about intent, so for instance, Moon and Coles get 7 and 5 for defense, based on what players like Du Preez/Weisse bring, which is out and out aggression along with tackling, rucking and mauling ability, each player was a comparison of their positions so a prop could get 9 for attack based on his limited opportunity.
Moon and Coles have got all the attributes to be International class, but in my opinion lack the "dog" that's needed to get there. I played with and against some very effective players who were very limited in the skills dept, but intimidated the hell out of the opposition, I 'm a big fan of Sam Graham, a, I think he is a improving and b, his aggression is infectious.

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HammerSaint
I think my ratings are being taken a tad too seriously and too forensic, they are just my opinion, but it's more about intent, so for instance, Moon and Coles get 7 and 5 for defense, based on what players like Du Preez/Weisse bring, which is out and out aggression along with tackling, rucking and mauling ability, each player was a comparison of their positions so a prop could get 9 for attack based on his limited opportunity.
Moon and Coles have got all the attributes to be International class, but in my opinion lack the "dog" that's needed to get there. I played with and against some very effective players who were very limited in the skills dept, but intimidated the hell out of the opposition, I 'm a big fan of Sam Graham, a, I think he is a improving and b, his aggression is infectious.

I think that sums up the pair nicely. Do they intimidate you? Sorry, neither of them. I have to confess to having a similar feeling about Scott-Young, but he has time to convince me otherwise.

Sam Graham is a grafter. A hard grafter and keeps on improving.

The back three need to be ‘nasty’ along the lines of Earl - it works.

When you look man for man, got to say, we look like we will struggle…
The days of a front row of tiny Hartley and mooj feel a long time ago.

I am certainly worried about driving mails from lineouts. Sale had loads of practice last week

So am I.

They will focus on that.

But I think we will beat them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:10:15:03:25:51 by Scrumpy Half.

Sale supporters seem confident
[forum.viewfromthe22.com]

Saints very slow and ponderous near the Sale line at the end so easy to defend against. Whatever happened to the Saints magic tap move. Involves pace and it worked

That was a spirited performance by saints
Defence much tighter
And stopping attack on gain line

Surprisingly for Saints attack seemed far too one dimensional, particularly at the end with a chance to snatch the win

Bit more dog and fight

Brave effort and saw much more intent and decent defense which should get better, strange, awful ball handling and kick chase.

Hopefully the defence will keep improving and the handling will ho back to normal next week.

Lots to like, some issues still.

We haven’t lost our magical ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. When did we last win at Sale? A banker four points for them every season.

When trying to catch the high ball in the back field our defenders really would benefit from a defensive screen of players that all other teams employ but we don’t appear to be aware of as an option. Lack of screen leaves the catcher horribly exposed. Impressed by the dog and fight, and new signings have all added some “ edge”.

Before the game I read various opinions about our heavy defeat and how we'd be lucky to get a bonus point and how we were lightweight and we couldn't tackle and would get swept away.

What I watched was grit and fight and never say die - the additional pounds of muscle slowing us down a little and causing the naysayers to suggest we don't care and can't put the effort in.

I also saw vastly improved skills, a couple of missed calls and some unfortunate bounces - these will even themselves out over a season if we keep going like we set out today.

I'm not sure how many scrums there were over the course of the game ? Not many, but Alex W's introduction was seismic scrumwise, and deserves a mention.

Good result to get a losing bonus point. Not many come away from Sale with anything.

Thought we fronted up well against arguably the most physical team in the league.

Thought we looked knackered at the end. Whether that's due to not enough 'preseason' games or the result of bulking up but it'll get there.

With some better handling, we could have been returning with a win but lots of positives.

A lot of quality to come back... we'll be fine.

Shame not to steal it at the end, strange we were trying to play so tight and narrow, not really our game and against 14. Overall still pretty sloppy, lots of errors by trying to play right on the defensive line. Would have probably taken a losing bonus before however and some dog shown so stuff to build on.

Generally I thought it was a poor match between two quite poor teams. On that display [u]both teams will have to improve to be troubling the Top 4.
Our backs didn't seem to have anything exciting and Dingwall will be out for a few weeks too Glad we managed a point

That was a better performance than expected by most and could even have ended in a win at the end. A few issues with ball retention and dealing with high balls but overall a promising start against tough opposition.
Just one moan. Tap penalty no. 1 at the end in front of posts was fine. But tap no. 2 in same place after they had lost a player to yellow card we should have chosen a scrum.
But we’ll done the boys overall.

Much improved physicality , scrum went well putting pressure on the ref and the opposition, also thought Alex Coles had his best game for a year. Well done

We've seen some big defeats and dreadful performances at Sale over the last 5-10 years, so it was good to see a competitive game and get the bonus point. Sale deserved the win with better accuracy and stronger defence, but I still felt that was a game we should've won. It's a shame Fin missed a straightforward penalty which would've made decision making easier at the end

It was good to see defence improve throughout the match. After conceding 2 pretty soft tries in quick succession I was anticipating a Sale BP by half time and a 20+ point defeat. We could really do with analysing how Sale shield their back 3 under the high ball and aim to replicate that. It seems like a basic thing - which would make high balls far easier to deal with - that most sides seem to be better at.

Personally rather than Saints adding a screen of players in front of catchers I'd rather see other teams pulled up on it but there we go!

For me lots to build on, many teams will do worse than a LBP and no bonus for them away at Sale (last season's finalists) and I'm sure this is my coloured specs but I thought they could/should have been penalised more/earlier for lots of very negative play.

Quite a lot to be positive about, despite the loss.

Scrum and Lineout both went well. Though the jury is still out on any defensive improvement. There was also an improvement in our overall physicality I thought.

With Sale defending quite narrow I was surprised that we didn't go out the back more, to try to test the edge of their defence.

Why we didn't scrum at the end I have no idea. That was a real brain fart! Our scrum was going well and a central scrum with a defender in the bin would surely have seen us walk in for the win. Who is making those decisions?

Wasn't Waller (Snr) captain for the last period? Surely he'd have wanted to go for a scrum?!

I noticed (and commentators also) that Ramm looks visibly chunkier - didn't seem to impact his twinkle toes but he was reeled in a little going down the wing for his try. Was trying to remember last season whether he had many similar 'top end' moments, most of what I can remember was good work in tighter confines.

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Wasn't Waller (Snr) captain for the last period? Surely he'd have wanted to go for a scrum?!
I think it was Sam Graham.
I thought Hendy was good and Tom James a bit off, but overall better than most people thought.

Interesting that Tommy V in the Chron has James Ramm as star man at 8/10. Most are 7.5 and Fin is less
I think we might have won the game had the players put in enough extra effort to raise their scores by half a point?

Enough extra effort? I think that's a bit unfair. We may not have won but I don't ever think that the players can ever be accused of not trying hard enough.

Hopefully you're being sarcastic and I've missed the translation from voice to text.

I thought Millar Mills did very well for a 'championship' player. He bossed the scrum, carried well and did well to recover lose ball in some dangerous places. Played well enough to be in the Premiership team of the week!

A little worried about Dingwall. With his injury and Odendaal out, we could be a little thin at centre. Freeman can cover but that's not the same as a specialist. Perhaps a week of centre training will sort that out... he certainly has the size to play there. I think I heard George North similarities mentioned... could be a lot worse. We just need to have Sleightholme back to add wing depth.

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St Stokey.
Enough extra effort? I think that's a bit unfair. We may not have won but I don't ever think that the players can ever be accused of not trying hard enough.
Hopefully you're being sarcastic and I've missed the translation from voice to text.

I thought Millar Mills did very well for a 'championship' player. He bossed the scrum, carried well and did well to recover lose ball in some dangerous places. Played well enough to be in the Premiership team of the week!

A little worried about Dingwall. With his injury and Odendaal out, we could be a little thin at centre. Freeman can cover but that's not the same as a specialist. Perhaps a week of centre training will sort that out... he certainly has the size to play there. I think I heard George North similarities mentioned... could be a lot worse. We just need to have Sleightholme back to add wing depth.

Interesting comment - I had thought Seabrook was a centre/wing. Where did he end up when he came on, on Sunday?

He came on as wing and Tommy F went to centre

Interestingly both our props (and Coles) are in the Prem team of the week - and no backs!

From his interview on a previous Saints Show, first of the season I think, he stated that he saw himself as primarily a wing.

Thank you to both Chris Hoddle and St Stokey for helping me keep up!

Did anyone else notice, at the back of rucks, Warr take the ball back behind the back foot, before picking it up to box kick? Surely we should have been going for him/the ball each time?

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Toulousian Firefighter
Did anyone else notice, at the back of rucks, Warr take the ball back behind the back foot, before picking it up to box kick? Surely we should have been going for him/the ball each time?

Spot on. I was screaming at the screen "that's out"