Saints v Bristol 21/10/23 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:10:27:08:54:38 by Saint Ted.

We are going to get smashed by the 2 centres they have hutchinson great player never that good at the tackling stuff.Add to that hendy at fullback not physical enough either it is going to be a long afternoon imo.

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saint buck
We are going to get smashed by the 2 centres they have hutchinson great player never that good at the tackling stuff.Add to that hendy at fullback not physical enough either it is going to be a long afternoon imo.

can't beat a bit of positivity

I would think we will need to have at least one of the backrow in permanent attendance to cover the 10/12 channel, that does look a bit soft.

What happened to the big centre Sam's brother, is he still with us ?

I think we should win this one.

Wasn’t Joel M injured in a cup game?

Joel, that's it, I don't remember him getting injured but may well have done, although he doesnt appear in the Not Available list.

He's still green in that position but Freeman's a big man and no pushover defensively - but agree some backrow cover across the centres is always useful!

I'm fairly positive personally, as always I think the backrow battle will be key, we saw last season if we get quick ball we're deadly but need to be wary of being turned over.

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Deesaint
Joel, that's it, I don't remember him getting injured but may well have done, although he doesnt appear in the Not Available list.

I imagine both he and Sam are heading home for their father's funeral - so perhaps the club could consider adding generally unavailable personnel to the injured list ?

Surprised Sleithholme is not in the squad or listed as unavailable, unless I am missing something?

Tough to call games this early in the season hopefully home advantage will see us through.

10 players not available for selection, a number of players already named as missing but not on the list as not available and we are only one game into the season, what is going on?
Really not too confident of a win with this turnout, but hope to be proved wrong.

Ollie has only recently become fit and is not yet ready for selection.

He will definitely be in the mix soon.

Wet possibly heavy pitch……I think ‘fearful’ would be the right word

Quote:

saint buck
We are going to get smashed by the 2 centres they have hutchinson great player never that good at the tackling stuff.Add to that hendy at fullback not physical enough either it is going to be a long afternoon imo.

Never mind their centres, it's Harry Thacker we've got to worry about, he always seems to be a problem when he's got the ball.

Pleased to see freeman in at outside centre - this is an experiment that will be fascinating - he’s big, fast and strong - so that should be interesting.

Hutch/Fin will need protecting - probably Tom Pearson - but yeah, going to be difficult game!

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Stillgrinning

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Deesaint
Joel, that's it, I don't remember him getting injured but may well have done, although he doesnt appear in the Not Available list.

I imagine both he and Sam are heading home for their father's funeral - so perhaps the club could consider adding generally unavailable personnel to the injured list ?

Bloody hell, of course, thanks

A positive is Tom James at 9. Not as fast and snappy as our other options but he is a big lad, he wouldnt look out of place at 12 and he can add a little extra bulk in Defence if needed. Its not ideal but its one thing he does offer over Mitchell/McParland.

Freeman is definitely big and strong enough for the Centres and Smith is a brave tackler, not massive but he is not a walkover. Hutch needs to prove us all wrong here. Just go low and keep it simple, it doesn't really matter how big a man is if you grab him round the legs (its going to hurt anyway).

We have seen Hutch make the odd decent hit, I think it's mainly a psychological thing - he does really have the ability to open up defences though and Freeman on the shoulder (or a dummy runner) is a great prospect if it clicks.

Does anyone actually have stats to back up how poor Hutch is in defence?

I know he's no Dingwall but he's a very different type of player and we'd be a very different team without him.

He may not be an out and out defensive rock but I struggle to believe that he's as bad as he is being made out. Perhaps a few years ago be was pretty porous but I think he's made some significant improvements.

The weakness for me is not Hutchinson's supposed defensive frailty but the lack of time that he and Freeman have had to develop their partnership.

I'd agree - not to reignite the debate around putting numbers to it but he is probably more of an attack minded player.

I think it's quite commonly accepted that 13 is a difficult place to defend (yes I know he's often 12 as this weekend) and while there are occasions where a one on one tackle is missed, so often its overall defensive alignment etc.

Also agree on Thacker - he's been a pain against us since Tigers days!

Appears that size is a selection criteria this week, with two mainly second rows on the bench . I'd have thought it was a opportunity to play Pollock as he won't get too many opportunities when all the backrow players are available.

What's the news on Temo's injury?

We need a Thacker Whacker!!

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St Stokey.
Does anyone actually have stats to back up how poor Hutch is in defence?
I know he's no Dingwall but he's a very different type of player and we'd be a very different team without him.

He may not be an out and out defensive rock but I struggle to believe that he's as bad as he is being made out. Perhaps a few years ago be was pretty porous but I think he's made some significant improvements.

The weakness for me is not Hutchinson's supposed defensive frailty but the lack of time that he and Freeman have had to develop their partnership.

In the last game, up at Sale, he was quite active.

The biggest problem - that I see - is the reluctance for threequarters in general to hurry back into position. And thensimple numbering off. And then the width, or lack of it.

Soft as s**t up front too easy for Bristol once they get anywhere near. Better toughen up quick this year as the opposition forwards must be salivating waiting to get stuck into us.

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Flyhooker
Soft as s**t up front too easy for Bristol once they get anywhere near. Better toughen up quick this year as the opposition forwards must be salivating waiting to get stuck into us.

Spot on. I'm just glad we have sorted the defence out, otherwise we would really struggle...

Top two still the aim from the coaching staff? Lots of time still but I'm not feeling it currently.

Frustrating thing is, I didn't think bristol were great. Their tries were all extremely soft. Not good at all really. Some flashes from individuals to create line breaks but not functioning well as a team.

Oh dear that was awful. So much for making the Gardens a fortress this year.
We really don't make teams work very hard to score points against us.
The odd nice move in the first half but tactically still absolutely rubbish.

Left it too late again, too many stupid offload attempts from James in particular, felt like we were forcing it a bit. defence starting to look a bit better

Dreadful, last year all over again. Excellent first 30 minutes then terrible after that. No answer to attacks near our line - every team will do that now. Set pieces poor. Unnecessary penalties. Save us the Dowson platitudes please.

We started really well
But through some basic brain f@rts didn’t finish
But should have been out of sight after 25

We then just fell off
Lost intensity and seemed aimless
Ended up letting in try after try

Last 10 we woke up again
Got close in the last five minutes
One off runners ( just like at Sale )
Couldn’t breach the defence

Ended up with a knock on from a kamakazee pass

Defence was better
But need to maintain intensity for 80 minutes
and not go to sleep

I would think PD is spitting feathers

We gave that game away

Coles and Moon really need to watch EE tonight and see if they can get some nastyness

We can’t let teams get back in games like we did today

De ja vu all over again!

A really promising and forceful start, full of intent.

And then the same old problems rearing their head. Problems at scrum and line out, which had been much improved last week, and the penalties, oh! the penalties!

It struck me that while we've recruited well we still don't seem to have addressed the leadership issue. Or, rather the lack of it that has been apparent the last few seasons. We looked really rudderless and leaderless today when things started to go wrong. We seem to start halfs well, when the coaching messages are still fresh in our ears, but who's carrying that onto the pitch? When things start to go against us we still seem to fall apart and lose our discipline and focus alarmingly quickly!

Admittedly, we're missing Courtney, Lewis and Dingwall today. But it would have been nice to have a steady old hand or two out there the last couple of weeks.

Just a thought
Have we started a new three year plan
Or are we still in the middle of the last one

Are we still full of youngsters and need to give them a chance

Is it more important to have a team full of home grown players or win games

We can’t defend well if we are concentrating on attacking

It’ll all be ok when the internationals return

It all seems so confusing 🫤 😂😂



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:10:21:17:22:52 by Deesaint.

Quote:

Deesaint
Just a thought
Have we started a new three year plan
Or are we still in the middle of the last one

Are we still full of youngsters and need to give them a chance

Is it more important to have a team full of home grown players or win games

We can’t defend well if we are concentrating on attacking

It’ll all be ok when the internationals return

It all seems so confusing 🫤 😂😂

Whatever Deesaint is drinking, I'll have the same!

15 penalties and a faltering line-out were the reasons.

Please just take the penalty in front of the posts just as Graham is coming back on please. Over 10 minutes to win the game then. Very frustrating again Saints.

Why do we keep loosing concentration for long periods every game. This has been going on for so long it's time the coaches got it sorted or start dropping players and telling them why.

Same old same old, so disappointing. Defeat from jaws of victory. Unforced errors, sloppy restarts, avoidable pens - all of which gave easy points away. But worst of all defence. Stark difference between us and Bristol. I’m no expert but we look so passive, back off and drift rather than blitz, so we concede massive amounts of easy yards. And once the ball is 10 metres out from our line we might as well chalk up 7 points to the oppo. In contrast we never, ever looked like breaching their line through the forwards. Just like at Sale.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:10:21:17:46:04 by Bucksaint .

Quote:

Awaywin
Please just take the penalty in front of the posts just as Graham is coming back on please. Over 10 minutes to win the game then. Very frustrating again Saints.

Usual theme is to concede a penalty straight after though unfortunately, to even up the 3points decision, or worse allow them a soft score from 5 out.

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Awaywin
Please just take the penalty in front of the posts just as Graham is coming back on please. Over 10 minutes to win the game then. Very frustrating again Saints.

Exactly what we said !

Leadership - I’ve been banging on about this for a long time. Saints have no effective leaders other than Ludlam and even Lewis is not the full nine yards yet as a Captain. A good side needs leaders all over the park, not just a player selected to lead out the team and communicate with the referee.

The more things change, the more they stay the same!
Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr

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Awaywin
Please just take the penalty in front of the posts just as Graham is coming back on please. Over 10 minutes to win the game then. Very frustrating again Saints.

+1

Daft decision to go for the corner, when the penalty would narrow the gap to less than seven. Loads of time to score again, and two scores needed in any event.

Totally frustrating afternoon. Too much indiscipline, penalties and just no answer when the other
team start pushing in rucks and mauls. Its all very well running lines and looking flash but the results at the end of the day just aren't coming (and yes i know its only game 2).

Only made the 2nd half today & confirmed why I've given up my 30 year season tickets - I've watched World Class players & followed my club all over Europe. Today I watched kids - so sad

Poor discipline, failing to build momentum by surrendering possession and territory after we scored pretty much every time.

Having our 2 best finishers off the field for the final 10 minutes didn’t help.

Anyone looked at the other results/table? Going to be a strange, close season. On a childhood fave show of mine they used to announce that anything could happen in the next half hour. Anything really could happen in the next 8 months.

A bit tighter, a bit smarter should see us set fair IMO. I find it simultaneously frustrating and encouraging that we are so close. Definitely frustrating that Fortress Franklins has already stalled, still at square one.

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higgy365
Anyone looked at the other results/table? Going to be a strange, close season. On a childhood fave show of mine they used to announce that anything could happen in the next half hour. Anything really could happen in the next 8 months.
A bit tighter, a bit smarter should see us set fair IMO. I find it simultaneously frustrating and encouraging that we are so close. Definitely frustrating that Fortress Franklins has already stalled, still at square one.

Tigers fan but it’s no surprise that the teams least affected by the World Cup are going 2/2. We both have lost to the same teams in similar style too.

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Lionator

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higgy365
Anyone looked at the other results/table? Going to be a strange, close season. On a childhood fave show of mine they used to announce that anything could happen in the next half hour. Anything really could happen in the next 8 months.
A bit tighter, a bit smarter should see us set fair IMO. I find it simultaneously frustrating and encouraging that we are so close. Definitely frustrating that Fortress Franklins has already stalled, still at square one.

Tigers fan but it’s no surprise that the teams least affected by the World Cup are going 2/2. We both have lost to the same teams in similar style too.

I would remind you Lionater that Bristol are without their first choice props as well as Malins and a few South Sea guys.

Really lost our way quite disappointingly through the middle of that match, after an excellent start. After defending better on the whole up at Sale last week there I thought yesterday was a regression. Line speed was a bit lacking at times and too often we allowed the attacker to work up plenty of momentum, running at our defenders who were too stationary. Agree that leadership and cool heads to stem the flow of errors and penalties in the middle 40 mins appeared to be lacking.

Chatting this morning about yesterday, a couple of ageing season ticket holders came to the same conclusion. Look, our players are talented, that’s why they are employed by the Saints as professionals. Some are International class, others perhaps journeymen but nonetheless all are capable. The problem is that we don’t seem to have a particularly intelligent set of players. Now of course, that is not an academic issue more a question of rugby nous on the field of play.They train all week, they analyse the opposition and they begin with a game plan. The issue seems to be the lack of ability to think on their feet - we lack game changers and players who can see when Plan A is going astray and do something about it without waiting to be told by the Coaches at half time or when the water boys and medics come on the field. Surely it has to a mix of a basic plan allied to instinct backed up by an ability to change things when they are not working. I don’t see too much talking on the field during breaks of play nor leaders laying down the law to their team-mates. Are Saints still too nice, lacking what some call ‘dog’ at the breakdown when we really need to be competing more ? Who is making those on field decisions such as the seventieth minute penalty yesterday ? At Sale we had loads of possession at the death but kept trying to batter our way through perhaps the toughest defence in the Premiership. Against Bristol, a comfortable lead was surrendered for no apparent reason before, as ever, our own defence seems unable to defend their own line leading to a. certain inevitability of an opposition score any time they get within ten metres of our try line. With Lewis, Courts and Mitch away, someone needs to step up to the plate and show that little bit of edge which could make all the difference - it does not need to be the most talented player(s) just those with that extra mental capacity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:10:22:20:22:58 by NGSB.

We haven't moved forward in the last six or so years. Clearly many players have changed as have the coaches hard to figure out why.

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ajack
We haven't moved forward in the last six or so years. Clearly many players have changed as have the coaches hard to figure out why.

Coaches
Boyd and coach tutored by Boyd

I watched some of the Quins v Chiefs yesterday
Wondering why both teams were better at converting tries when they had the ball 15/20 meters out

While we just rely on single runners they work with pods
ball carrier hits the defending tackler and is quickly supported by one or two players who push him on another few meters

We have the players but just don’t seem to have the basics in place or the ability to play another game if Harlem globetrotter doesn’t work

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Deesaint

Quote:

ajack
We haven't moved forward in the last six or so years. Clearly many players have changed as have the coaches hard to figure out why.

Coaches
Boyd and coach tutored by Boyd

I watched some of the Quins v Chiefs yesterday
Wondering why both teams were better at converting tries when they had the ball 15/20 meters out

While we just rely on single runners they work with pods
ball carrier hits the defending tackler and is quickly supported by one or two players who push him on another few meters

We have the players but just don’t seem to have the basics in place or the ability to play another game if Harlem globetrotter doesn’t work

No one thinks Boyd has been a disaster and held us back more than me, but when you look at the squad and coaching set up overall it really has changed.

Interesting you mentioned Chiefs, last week everything stuck and they looked like world beaters, as we can on our day, this week not much did and I thought they looked more average. Admittedly this is with a very much changed squad and they are right at the beginning of a restructure where as we are supposedly 6 years in.

Full game now available on PRTV. Gave up watching at 52 minutes.

Why do we take the ball standing still in the forwards so often?
Why do we not routinely press in defence?
Why do we not use two forwards runners to try and make the defence uncertain of the receiver?

Why do we still ask the same questions we asked last season?

If we can see these issues......

It was - we'd rather play exciting rugby and lose compared to Exeter who are boring but win.

Then- with the salary cap we can't sign better players so have to accept the down grades.

Now - you daren't say anything about the club because we should just be lucky to have one.

I have asked many times who is coaching the forwards. We have a scrum coach and a line-out coach but no out and out forwards coach. In the Boyd era Dowson was coaching the forwards and they were terrible. I still feel we need an out and out forwards coach in the Dorien mould. Our who coaching team like the team on the pitch are too nice.

So far as I can see it's simple, Attitude. We simply aren't prepared to work hard be it getting back up to defend or busting a gut to support. It all seems like we are always stuck in cruise mode, doing the stuff we trained to do this week. There was a point in the second half where you could visibly see Bristol go up in intensity it was that stark. Courts needs to sit down with them all when he's back and drum it into them how he has got to being probably the best player in England and definitely the best Saint of all time. The guys work ethic every game is phenomenal. Is it a squad rotating thing? Don't have to put everything into every game because I'm not fighting for my place week in week out and I will be back in team every other week probably. I don't know. You would think with squad rotation it would be the opposite and you would be expected to empty the tank every game.

I just struggle to agree with this theory that they aren't giving their all in games - I don't think you'd get to this level without 100% commitment. Plus each and every player has competition in the squad, some more than others but nobody is really guaranteed a start, not even Ludlam as captain with Pearson around.

However I do think there is a focus issue, concentration or something similar as we just blow hot and cold within games most weeks.

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LeicesterSaint
I just struggle to agree with this theory that they aren't giving their all in games - I don't think you'd get to this level without 100% commitment. Plus each and every player has competition in the squad, some more than others but nobody is really guaranteed a start, not even Ludlam as captain with Pearson around.
However I do think there is a focus issue, concentration or something similar as we just blow hot and cold within games most weeks.

I read it slightly differently, and would not accept that they do not give their all.

The arguments - in my mind - are whether their "all" is enough/adequate, or if their all is being targetted incorrectly. There are a number of areas in play where I suspect we could argue over the effort level - getting back into position is one example.

We could also argue that our game suggests one or two players are not getting the individual development they require.

Or we could argue that the coaching is off-target??

Lots there to get our teeth into!!

Fitness looks a problem to me. They were blowing hard last week and on Saturday they were the same
We also have now lost all 4 of our full backs to injury
So who knows who will platt here next week
Why are the medical teams asking players to try and run off an infjury, Freeman looked in a lot of pain and should have been brought off, was on one leg and was then asked to defend, this could have made his injury worse. Same for Rahm. It’s a long season even longer that your 2 best finishers could now be out with long term injuries
The team looked clueless, I don’t think the defence he improved and the set piece has got backwards
Won’t make top 6!on this performance

Agreed - if it were simple we'd have sussed it by now, but then so would all the other teams!

I think a big part is clarity around the gameplan/strategy and each player's role in that strategy. That's why the top teams integrate new players better. That can potentially look like a lack of effort or fitness if a player loses a second (parts of second matter at this level) in thinking before moving.

Giving your all is an often used but meaningless saying.

By definition no one can give their every game, you can only do it for very short bursts. Players might raise the level they give for finals or important matches but they will always be operating at below maximum.

What might be a better question is in games of fine margins what is an acceptable drop off from 100%? The big gains are how you use the rest time or create it, resting for a few seconds prior to getting back in the defensive line is totally different to doing it when you are in it.

Biting in on someone else's tackle might look like "giving your all" but in reality just messes up defensive patterns. How smart you are conserving energy is very important, as obviously is fitness and desire to win.

One thing seems certain to me, six years down the road we don't look any closer to finding the answers.

Quote:

Saintalex
We also have now lost all 4 of our full backs to injury
So who knows who will platt here next week
Why are the medical teams asking players to try and run off an infjury, Freeman looked in a lot of pain and should have been brought off, was on one leg and was then asked to defend, this could have made his injury worse. Same for Rahm. It’s a long season even longer that your 2 best finishers could now be out with long term injuries

I was saying the same in D Block. Freeman looked in pain and should have gone off immediately. ‘Running an injury off’ is an old wives tale. If you are injured…you are injured. As soon as they start strapping the boot and ankle I cringe.