Saints v Quins 24th November 23 - Teams Up

What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:30:14:25:13 by Saint Ted.

That is a seriously strong set of backs in the Quins line up not so sure about their forwards. At least the larger of the two pantomime villains is nowhere to be seen !

Quote:

NGSB
At least the larger of the two pantomime villains is nowhere to be seen !

"Oh no, he isn't!"

Back row a relief after a few injuries. Be interesting to see how Savala goes if he comes off the bench.

Now Ribbans has left we rely more on Moon’s oompf so a shame he isn’t playing. Our new Fijian isn’t on the injured list which is great news if that correctly indicates he is back in training. Hope Lockett goes well off the bench. Big lad.

Ethan Waller picked to start was the biggest surprise after conceding lots of scrum penalties, a yellow card and being responsible for a disallowed try for a neck roll in last couple of games. The coaches must be seeing something I don’t. Hopefully he has a big game.

With our locks and centres having such long term and multiple injuries and being down to bare bones, I wonder if medical jokers with looked into.

I wish l could understand what the coaches see in Ethan as l gave yet to see anything that warranted his resigning.

Quote:

batty
I wish l could understand what the coaches see in Ethan as l gave yet to see anything that warranted his resigning.

Probably a mixture of:
Was out of contract
Known entity
Knew the club
Within budget
Would integrate quickly
Academy credits
Wouldn't need to be guaranteed starter
Available throughout the season
Wanted to come.

Is he world class? No.
Can he do a job? Yes.
Does he have off days? Yes
Does he have good days? Yes



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:23:16:48:37 by St Stokey..

Can just hear Tempest in my ear on Reflink...'Sara, GREEN 1 GREEN 1 GREEN 1. going down"...😔

Just as a matter of interest, does the Ladies league have male referees from time to time ?

Quote:

NGSB
Just as a matter of interest, does the Ladies league have male referees from time to time ?

They do.

Quote:

Saint Ted

Quote:

NGSB
Just as a matter of interest, does the Ladies league have male referees from time to time ?

They do.

Do the Ladies team have a decent loose head?

I fully expect the scrum to be fine today. Ethan is not poor, just not the right player for a scrum focused game. Quins like to use the ball. They are less likely to grind out penalties so as long as we don't immediately drop to the floor we should be fine.

Why no seabrook been really impressed with him always put out your best team.

Quote:

St Stokey.

Quote:

batty
I wish l could understand what the coaches see in Ethan as l gave yet to see anything that warranted his resigning.

Probably a mixture of:
Was out of contract
Known entity
Knew the club
Within budget
Would integrate quickly
Academy credits
Wouldn't need to be guaranteed starter
Available throughout the season
Wanted to come.

Is he world class? No.
Can he do a job? Yes.
Does he have off days? Yes
Does he have good days? Yes

Didn't I read that he's also the Chairman of the Players Association ?

Very useful chap to have behind the scenes as well I'd suggest.............

So two penalties inside 4 mins and one try down?

21-12 at half time, with a misfiring back line. I’ll take that.

C. O. Y. S. !!

Listening in from holiday.
Regardless of the outcome tonight, we continue to be so inaccurate, wasteful & full of incredibly poor decision making regardless of who is playing.
It has been going on for so many years and it's really frustrating to feel pretty sure that in any big game, we'll continue to come out second best.

second half is a good fight

A good win but should have been much easier. Thought Mitchell was bang average, so inconsistent and no control. Tom James deserves a start

To be fair, inconsistent and no control sums up Saints as a whole and not just Alex Mitchell !

I’m not sure what Courtney’s on
But I wish I had some

Great win

Bit worried that Alex M has lost something since he game back from WC
Still doing 80% of what he did before but seemed unsure on occasions, lack of accuracy and game management

Scored a great try
But then instrumental in giving 2 away

Perhaps needs a rest



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:24:21:41:10 by Deesaint.

I think Alex needs to reacclimate to Saints and the club game. I think that going from a highly proscriptive environment like England (where he wasn't really wanted, regardless) to the more open game Saints play can take time to work its way through the system. Many players in the past have had trouble going back and forth and Mitchell wouldn't be the first. Have to give Mitchell a little time to see where he is. BUt, to be fair, this could be a worry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:24:21:49:37 by Saint Gordo.

Indeed Dicko was never the same after his stint with England

Exactly, and probably one of the most extreme examples.

Quote:

BerniesBestFriend
Can just hear Tempest in my ear on Reflink...'Sara, GREEN 1 GREEN 1 GREEN 1. going down"...😔

I listened for it...

Quote:

Saint Gordo
I think Alex needs to reacclimate to Saints and the club game. I think that going from a highly proscriptive environment like England (where he wasn't really wanted, regardless) to the more open game Saints play can take time to work its way through the system. Many players in the past have had trouble going back and forth and Mitchell wouldn't be the first. Have to give Mitchell a little time to see where he is. BUt, to be fair, this could be a worry.

Spot on. By the sound of it as a team we are not quite clicking generally and Alex isn’t quite at his best, so I don’t think there is cause for concern yet, it will come

I don't think Saints were that far away from a real solid performance. This is improvement. Team did click for decent periods of time. And this was against what looks like most of Quins best XV (Marler was out).

Plus Furbank was at 10 (not a knock at him, but he is not really at 10, though played very well). Hendy really added something at fullback; he can accelerate and is fast. Sleights on the wing is always a plus with that eye for the line. Dinger was solid, like usual. Freeman at OC was also solid as well. But Pearson was very good and, well, how good is Lawes?

That was a major boner by Mitchell at the end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:24:23:46:55 by Saint Gordo.

Well I enjoyed that anyway.
Yes, control wasn’t always there and some passing was t spot on, but overall travelling in the right direction.
I’d rather watch this than stuff-it-up-your-jumper rugby.
I thought Furbank is a pretty good replacement 10. Tackling, passing, kicking- he managed it well.
Dingwall solid as usual and created threats, and Freeman at 13 is a revelation.
Great to see sleighthome score, great aggression, and Hendy has improved so much it is so pleasing to see.
Scrum did well, line out was a threat, and the forwards generally played b well.

Yes, lax in parts, but so many positives

I thought from the last warm up games preseason that there was something different with Saints attitude and approach

We have some fantastic players
They just need guidance and coaching to get them where we all want them
Challenging for honours

This is the first season since Boyd stepped in that we look like we have a quality defence

Our scrum still needs a bit of work

Lineout functions

Breakdown can be a lottery

I would say we are 75% there

If we can keep moving forward and get to 90% I believe we will be up there

Getting there is always going to be frantic
Wins and losses

But overall we are moving in the right direction

Was it my imagination or did commentary say we were top of the "fewest tackles missed" league so far this season?

Yep, good tackle percentage. This is where people get a bit confused. Our tackle stats were actually very good last season as well. That was not where our defence problems existed. The problem was where we weren’t able to make the tackles. Structure left gaps. Positioning left gaps. Trust of each other left gaps. That is where a league coach is tightening up the team. habits take time to change, and when things start to go wrong like last week then they revert to old style, but it is happening.
As to a few nasty things being said about Mitch. Quality player who carried England in the World Cup. He does tire towards the end of 80 minutes, so probably should have been subbed, but he brings an absolute doggedness both in attack and defence.
As ever, being a Saints supporter just means never having fingernails.

It was always going to be a different type of game. You have to play the opposition and i think we mostly did.

Both teams scored plenty but overall we scored more and our scores came easier. The final try was a blemish but otherwise after weeks of grinding defence and with the forced changes it was good to see us turn on the style again.

I really like Hendy, Sleightholm and Furbank together. Fast running, offloading but strong enough to go through tackles not just round them. Very hard to defend. In the second half we seemed to get the offloading game working too.

What a game?!

I was way out regarding George at FH. Top performance.

Surprised - pleasantly so - by Ethan Waller.

Worried by the number of injuries we seem to be picking up, both in training and games.

Enjoyed that.

Lots of good and lots of rubbish in that game but ultimately it’s a BP win against Quins. With our 10 and 8 injury situation that’s very pleasing. Shame that they took two BPs but they’re very hard to put to bed (unless you’re Saracens). Defence looked much improved in organisation and there was plenty of endeavour to get back. Brilliant to see Sleightholme running angrily once more, Courts with his game saving interventions and Furbs putting in a very rounded 10 performance. The Mitch criticism here and on the other dedicated thread is weird. He’s not shy around the gamble button and that has led to mistakes but his great outshines his bad for me. Monster clearances, contestable box kicks, excellent pass selection & execution and an eye for opportunity. One of the first names on the team sheet for me.

I thought Ollie was a revelation last night - so good to see him fit and hungry. Furbs did well at outside half and the scrum held up well. Penalty count still too high and Saints remain a sucker for a pushover try. Still work in progress but five points is pleasing.

Well, lots of areas last night that were pretty decent, beating quin's is always a good result. Not sure what Mitchell was thinking at the end, we seem to enjoy making life difficult. Could have done with denying quin's the extra bonus point, but hopefully if we are in the shake up at the end of the season, it doesn't bite us.

Such an enjoyable game for all sorts of reasons.
Hope Ludlam and the others to take knocks are ok.

Thought we saw both some of the best and also not so good from Mitchell but overall he's still a big positive. First time I've seen Furbank and thought he looked really excellent. Great game control and a really impressive game in defence. Coles continues to look great every game, given the relative paucity of quality locks for England surely he's starting to come into the equation?

Something I found interesting as an observation (saw it last week too) is stopping Quins is much more about stopping Esterhuizen and to a lesser extent Dombrandt than it is about stopping Smith.

Really looking forward to the Sarries/Saints game as I think the way Saints play will be a real challenge.

Last word for Cox who I thought was exceptional. Yes there were mistakes like there are for every referee but I really liked that she gave instruction/clarification in breaks in play but otherwise refereed without "coaching"
I think the players struggled a little bit (both sides) with just getting penalised rather than getting a warning but IMO that is how it should be. Brilliant performance and I hope that's a trend set for the other referees especially those who feel no rugby game is complete without the soundtrack from them every 30 seconds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:25:09:31:40 by OldMarovian.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Such an enjoyable game for all sorts of reasons.
Hope Ludlam and the others to take knocks are ok.

Thought we saw both some of the best and also not so good from Mitchell but overall he's still a big positive. First time I've seen Furbank and thought he looked really excellent. Great game control and a really impressive game in defence. Coles continues to look great every game, given the relative paucity of quality locks for England surely he's starting to come into the equation?

Something I found interesting as an observation (saw it last week too) is stopping Quins is much more about stopping Esterhuizen and to a lesser extent Dombrandt than it is about stopping Smith.

Really looking forward to the Sarries/Saints game as I think the way Saints play will be a real challenge.

Last word for Cox who I thought was exceptional. Yes there were mistakes like there are for every referee but I really liked that she gave instruction/clarification in breaks in play but otherwise refereed without "coaching"
I think the players struggled a little bit (both sides) with just getting penalised rather than getting a warning but IMO that is how it should be. Brilliant performance and I hope that's a trend set for the other referees especially those who feel no rugby game is complete without the soundtrack from them every 30 seconds.

You are right about Smith, having a big bruiser next in the centre takes some attention away from him and it’s a nice get out plan if ball isn’t great just shovel it to the big guy recycle and go again. I think generally Smith has had Farrell at 12 when playing for England which doesn’t work imo for the reasons we have stated, he plays better with a big 12.

Agree. Tbh I think most teams would work well with a big 12 who can also pass and kick as well as Esterhuizen but it's only in seeing him shut down so comprehensively (against Sarries until he got a chance out wide late on) the past two weeks that you see how reliant Quins are on him.

(edit) any idea from the game what he did to really annoy Lawes? On TV they mentioned it and Lawes talking to the referee about him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:25:10:47:55 by OldMarovian.

Quote:

OldMarovian
(edit) any idea from the game what he did to really annoy Lawes? On TV they mentioned it and Lawes talking to the referee about him.

I will have to rewatch it, from the stands i could see courts looking annoyed, even went full on double teapot at one point. Not something you see from the big man too often. Calmest rugby player i know.

It wasn't totally clear from the very short clip shown on TV, but I wondered whether Esterhuizen spat at Lawes.

Looked to me that Courtney was punched/pushed on the back of the head by Dombrandt
but thought that Esterhuizen was responsible and had a few words.
As mentioned above Courtney is very calm and seldom riled.

+1

If saints can just cut out those overly-keen passes that fall into the opposition hands, learn to be a little more patient, we will start to control games more. Just be more streetwise. Quins got a lot of their points and yardage out of unnecessary loose passes. Outside of that, generally a good game.

Only caught up with the game this morning. Thought we played very well. Quins had their first choice backs playing and created very little - further evidence of an improving defence. Some outstanding individual performances - Furbank, Courtney, Hendy and others. The criticism of Mitchell on another thread is ridiculous - I actually think he has come back from the RWC a better player.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:26:13:40:44 by Statesman.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Last word for Cox who I thought was exceptional. Yes there were mistakes like there are for every referee but I really liked that she gave instruction/clarification in breaks in play but otherwise refereed without "coaching"
I think the players struggled a little bit (both sides) with just getting penalised rather than getting a warning but IMO that is how it should be. Brilliant performance and I hope that's a trend set for the other referees especially those who feel no rugby game is complete without the soundtrack from them every 30 seconds.

Agreed, thought she had a very good game and worked very well with Tempest as TMO.

I agree, really like Sara Cox as a ref, treads that line with players between being too pally and too headteacher-ish and is clear on decisions etc. Obviously had we lost she'd be awful!

I think Furbank stood out the most for a few defensive hits - we know he can run, pass and kick but he was putting some shots in.

It's a difficult balance, we want to keep creating the chances we do and playing free flowing attacking rugby but there does seem to be more defensive steel coming through albeit it will never happen overnight. Just hope Ludlam and Ramm aren't too bad.

I do also wonder how everything gets juggled when everyone is fit - we're well stocked for back 3 now so does Furbank end up playing less in the short term because he's needed as a back up to 10?

There will always be injuries and there will always be a need to rest and rotate, I suspect we’ve not really had the luxury of the depth of quality in key positions that we currently have for a while. It’s a nice problem to have but for certain Furbank is a more than competent prem level 10 and I completely understand why Grayson was frustrated.
Freeman has replaced Proctor as the wing/centre providing additional flex with the number of wing/15 we have. It’s a similar story in the pack with lock/6 options and across the backrow. We may loose Lewis for a while but hopefully get Graham and Trockie back soon.

Quote:

Sir Hector
There will always be injuries and there will always be a need to rest and rotate, I suspect we’ve not really had the luxury of the depth of quality in key positions that we currently have for a while. It’s a nice problem to have but for certain Furbank is a more than competent prem level 10 and I completely understand why Grayson was frustrated.
Freeman has replaced Proctor as the wing/centre providing additional flex with the number of wing/15 we have. It’s a similar story in the pack with lock/6 options and across the backrow. We may loose Lewis for a while but hopefully get Graham and Trockie back soon.

Personally I see Seabrook as a more direct Proctor replacement. He has that hard edge that Matt brought to the game.

I’ve really enjoyed what I have seen of Seabrook so far, equally so I was impressed by Furbs at ten against Quins. We have a decent squad this year - just a question of less unforced errors and occasionally a little more patience.

Bear in mind also that we haven't yet seen (or have barely seen):
- Odendal, who could add a really different dimension to our midfield
- Haffar, who L Irish fans were massively talking up as the much better prospect than Munga
- Iyogun, who has apparently bulked up, and had so much potential
- Mayanavanua, who is an international calibre second row
- Augustus, who we know all about

Add in these 5 to our matchday squads, and we have some massive depth.