Saints v Bayonne 12th Jan 2024 - Teams up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:18:09:12:37 by Saint Ted.

Strong team. Good bench too

Hopeful of a good result

Should be enough to do the job - dare I say five points is required ?

James available for selection? I’ll take it but I thought his ban included this game.

Was banned until 8th Jan

Been impressed with the Davison/Millar-Mills combination at TH. I remember M-M being good when Sarries came across him in the Championship and a bit like Clarey with us he shows the League has talent waiting to step up.

Looks like a strong team to me. Good luck.

Oooh, thats about as good as we can manage so fingers crossed it’s good enough! Will be there adding to the atmosphere, hope its a good crowd

Looks pretty much our best available team. Another 6-2 bench split



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:12:09:20:18 by Saint Ted.

Well if we can counter their pack and get some good ball we know we have the backs to beat anyone. Hence the 6:2 split I guess. A big first 20 woul;d be a help, we don’t want to give them confidence.

According to the BBC we have Hendy on the wing and Lockett in the second row. BBC rugby coverage is getting really sloppy.

Quote:

white lion
According to the BBC we have Hendy on the wing and Lockett in the second row. BBC rugby coverage is getting really sloppy.

Noticed that. Very amateur indeed.

NATIONAL BBC rugby coverage: I'd say our local BBC coverage is superlative.

We had the same the other week when Mitch was touted as the next England 10. Hastily retracted but utterly rubbish journalism that should never have passed scrutiny. The worst is that it reflects badly on the local team who must cringe everytime the main site puts anything out not from themselves.

Looks like they've simply lifted the Glasgow team.

It's not great, but given the lack of care and attention National BBC gives to it's Rugby coverage, you can appreciate the error.
Wouldn't get that carelessness from our local bunch!

Quote:

white lion
According to the BBC we have Hendy on the wing and Lockett in the second row. BBC rugby coverage is getting really sloppy.

In recent weeks we've had the tale of Mitchell at 10 for England, a link to the alternative that players association that "Kyle Sinckler" tried to set up and more. I know rugby isn't a top priority but it's really going down the pan.

Hutch at 13, not 12? Not for nothing but Dinger is a better defender, and in the wider channels too.

The numbers on their backs is for administrative purposes only.

SB had a quite word with Dowson about Dingwall and the 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 12 Jersey?

Great side. With a few returnees that is looking very strong. Really looking forward to it. Let's make a lot of noise, COYS.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Been impressed with the Davison/Millar-Mills combination at TH. I remember M-M being good when Sarries came across him in the Championship and a bit like Clarey with us he shows the League has talent waiting to step up.
Looks like a strong team to me. Good luck.

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I think it was wasps who came across MM at Ealing. I didn’t rate him when he came to us, but he does seem to be improving.
Sorry for my absence for a long time been rather tied up with things, and not a bit disheartened with the bankruptcies in the leagues. But I’ve been following your excellent progress with interest. I even came to the Quins game. With our ridiculous proposal of a move to Kent, you’re very much my alternative team! Good luck for tomorrow.

Sorry Buzzer I literally meant when Sarries were in the Championship we came across him as an opposition player.

Quote:

tigersimon
SB had a quite word with Dowson about Dingwall and the 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 12 Jersey?

Not sure if I was reading too much into it but I got the feeling from the subtle giggles on Scotland references that Dingers has chosen Scotland. He said he’d had contact from both SB and GT and had made a decision.

Falcons fan in peace. How’s Trev been going this season?

Quote:

Osric
Falcons fan in peace. How’s Trev been going this season?

Looks OK but maybe needs to bulk up more - work in progress

Osric he's doing well and impressing the wife who is from West Denton anyway so easily impressed. I think he has a chance with England A and will prove his worth. I' m originally from Denton in the Shire so always looking for Dentonites to impress. I hope Newcastle can keep going as they have brought on a few gems but I know it is always difficult with the Toon being so popular and well supported.

West Denton? Isn’t that Brafield? 🤔😜

no that's North Denton with Yardley breaking away to be South Denton.

Regarding the strength of the Bayonne team, from a quick comparison with the Bayonne teams that started their last two home games (wins v Racing and Montpellier). Equally they lost both their last two away games and sit 10th in the Top 14. It’s always hard to gauge how French teams will turn up. But they did go to Munster and get a draw.

There are 6 of their pack that have started their last two home games in the match day 23. Though more starters on the bench. Of the 13 forwards, only 2 didn’t feature in either match day squad.
The backs are less of their starters with quality players like Lopez not selected. 5 of the 10 played in the two home games but only 2 of the 10 started either game.

So they haven’t gone full strength but it’s still a pretty strong side.

So our 6/2 bench strategy looks sensible. We can expect a physical game. Given the strength of their forward bench we can’t afford to switch off in the second half.

COYS!!!

They certainly won't be mugs , but there are some big names missing..Iturria, Lopez, Hodge, Morahan, Mori. I'm not sure if they have a 9 on the bench, but Machenaud is starting.

Quote:

twsaint
They certainly won't be mugs , but there are some big names missing..Iturria, Lopez, Hodge, Morahan, Mori. I'm not sure if they have a 9 on the bench, but Machenaud is starting.

Every time I watch Machenaud, granted not too much, he plays well. But he has been around forever and must be mid-late 30s I would guess.
Kléo Labarbe is their back-up 9 and is just a kid. 19 or 20. He has got to have some toughness about him to be selected for this kind of match. But, if he comes on, we need to remind him where he is playing and that we are on the pitch with him, and let things play out.

Isn’t rugby a simple game 😀😀

What a half!

Perfect storm of us being ridiculously clinical and bayonne never getting off the plane.

Well, that will do nicely.

Now for Munster!

Saints needed a game like this. Most wins this season have been pretty close. So an important game when the scoring started early and almost never stopped (especially before take their collective feet of the pedal in the 2nd half), is good for the team.

Well that was fun.
Excellent attack and defence and looking forward to seeing a load of those Saints for England.
Great to see Pearson finding his feet over recent weeks. Also really pleased for Alex Waller to nab a couple.

That'll do.

COYS!

That was pretty awesome. Well done Jimmies!

Proper 'hats on wheels' stuff!.....Chapeaux!!!

Nurse!

Great stuff! Bravo

Clinical, who knows how much Bayonne we’re actually up for it, probably 50/50 our fast start really killed them off. Another day a slow start, Bayonne settle into it and it’s a lot tougher game. Once again hats off to coaching team, learning from last week and making sure we were out of the blocks.

TV & radio raving about some of our young players and quite rightly so. Michell should be a shoo in for England, but I really don’t think Borthwick will pick any other Saint in his starting XV. Freeman was brilliant again but may only get a bench slot given he can cover multiple positions. There’s a real case to be made for Michell & Smith F at half back with Freeman & Furbank in the back line but suspect he’ll go for those that can kick and chase. Hopefully I’m wrong

We’ve been here before when the likes of Lee Dickson and Phil Dowson got picked for England on the back of Saints form.

Healey was getting carried away. Sleightholme needs to solidify himself as first choice at Saints.

Mitchell and Freeman really should make the England 23. Furbank’s form makes him a serious option but will Borthwick really drop Steward?

I can see Dingwall’s rugby brain translating well to international rugby. But I doubt Dingwall will make the 23. His size doesn’t help his cause where there are so many behemoths in the centre in international rugby. I suspect Borthwick would prefer the brawn of Lawrence/Tuilagi or Freeman or Hartley (Sarries 6 foot 4 young centre).

The one player no included by Healey who, for me, should be is Fin Smith. He may not be as flashy as Marcus Smith who is wonderful at breaking the gain line but Fin is easily the more complete player and better all-rounder IMHO (a bit like Pollard compared to Janties or Carter v Spencer or Andrew v Barnes). I was so impressed with Fin v Bayonne. All kicks on target (one landed short), a fantastic offensive defender for a fly half (top 5 tacklers in the Premiership -amazing for a fly half), excellent game management - playing in the right areas; identifying space and passing that allows the support player to run at pace knowing the pass will be on the money and lovely cross field kicks. I really don’t think Fin Smith is being given enough of the credit for how well Saints are playing.

First half was just about a perfect performance by Saints, great game management and skills and says something when forwards score 5 of the 6 tries yet it is still exciting attacking rugby.

Was always going to be hard to match in the second half and in a way was good we got to go through some defensive sets.

Set piece was solid all game and we gave away very few penalties

The good teams and coaches will always be looking to nullify our attack but we seem capable of playing in many ways (no longer plan A or bust)

Whilst Tommy was again exceptional and got MOM poor Pearson must wonder what he has to do to get the award, some really good dominant tackling and a hatrick of tries!

Fully agree on Smith as well, he had an exceptionally good game and ran the show very well

On current form think you could have up to 9 players called up to the wider 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 squad

In order of Likelihood

Mitchell
Freeman
Furbank
Pearson
Smith
Coles
Dingwall
Langdon
Davison

And possibly 4 or 5 in Match Day 23

Langdon and Davison, I can see being involved with England A with Moon & Sleights.

Once again a tribute to the coaching team.
One aspect that maybe doesn't get enough attention is just how much the performace is based on precise and accurate skills, which lead to confidence. Towards the end of the first half Furbank mis-handled - was that the first time in about 800 minutes?

Quote:

Santiago
Once again a tribute to the coaching team.
One aspect that maybe doesn't get enough attention is just how much the performace is based on precise and accurate skills, which lead to confidence. Towards the end of the first half Furbank mis-handled - was that the first time in about 800 minutes?

+1

George Ford has a knee injury and recovery time will be tight to make the first game of the 6 Nations. Therefore, Smith, the Quin, gets the 10 jumper by default. Which leaves Smith, the Fin on the bench in the 23.

Fords injury has been characterised as an MCL sprain, and though these usually are a 3-5 week recovery if there are no additional factors involved. Unfortunately, can't commit too directly without seeing the file.

My thought is what Borthwick will do if Ford's injury doesn't react sufficiently well enough to recovery work and he is out longer than just the Italy match. Could be a very different solution than if Ford is out for only one match.

Quote:

Saint Gordo
George Ford has a knee injury and recovery time will be tight to make the first game of the 6 Nations. Therefore, Smith, the Quin, gets the 10 jumper by default. Which leaves Smith, the Fin on the bench in the 23.
Fords injury has been characterised as an MCL sprain, and though these usually are a 3-5 week recovery if there are no additional factors involved. Unfortunately, can't commit too directly without seeing the file.

My thought is what Borthwick will do if Ford's injury doesn't react sufficiently well enough to recovery work and he is out longer than just the Italy match. Could be a very different solution than if Ford is out for only one match.

I would start Fin alongside Mitchell and possibly Dingwall at 12 against 🇮🇹 and have wonder boy on the bench? Club partnerships will just make it easier for everybody.

It’s difficult to know what the next cab of the rank is, if Ford is out for the Six Nations or the majority of it!

I know it's the 6 nations but everything is being geared towards the next world Cup. Ford will be 34 by then. So if we don't start flooding the next generation now, we'll be going in with some inexperienced players. I'd start Mitchell, Fin and Fraser against Italy. If nothing else, they're tied to England while then continue to develop.

How annoying would it be if England allowed Fin and Fraser to choose to play for Scotland and for them to become the next Wilkinson or O'Driscoll, etc.

Playing a saints partnership would help bed them in.

Furbank
Freeman
Lawrence
Dingwall
Radwan
F Smith
Mitchell

That would do a proper job against Italy.

Quote:

Saint Maul
We’ve been here before when the likes of Lee Dickson and Phil Dowson got picked for England on the back of Saints form.
Healey was getting carried away. Sleightholme needs to solidify himself as first choice at Saints.

Mitchell and Freeman really should make the England 23. Furbank’s form makes him a serious option but will Borthwick really drop Steward?

I can see Dingwall’s rugby brain translating well to international rugby. But I doubt Dingwall will make the 23. His size doesn’t help his cause where there are so many behemoths in the centre in international rugby. I suspect Borthwick would prefer the brawn of Lawrence/Tuilagi or Freeman or Hartley (Sarries 6 foot 4 young centre).

The one player no included by Healey who, for me, should be is Fin Smith. He may not be as flashy as Marcus Smith who is wonderful at breaking the gain line but Fin is easily the more complete player and better all-rounder IMHO (a bit like Pollard compared to Janties or Carter v Spencer or Andrew v Barnes). I was so impressed with Fin v Bayonne. All kicks on target (one landed short), a fantastic offensive defender for a fly half (top 5 tacklers in the Premiership -amazing for a fly half), excellent game management - playing in the right areas; identifying space and passing that allows the support player to run at pace knowing the pass will be on the money and lovely cross field kicks. I really don’t think Fin Smith is being given enough of the credit for how well Saints are playing.

Yes, agree with almost all of that. The last two months has been some of the best rugby I've seen Saints play. Compared to last season the precision has gone up a notch, discipline and defence are significantly better and we do not know when to lose!

Fin Smith was masterful last night - distribution, decision making, kicking from hand and tee, defence. International quality. Mitch is likely to be first choice 9, which could strengthen the case for Fin at 10. Freemo really ought to start, but may not do if Borthwick doesn't look to adapt England's limited game plan. Thought he was fantastic again, a constant danger.

Only slight worry is that the long break after Newcastle will disrupt our momentum a bit. But by the time we pick up pitches and the weather should be more favourable to our gameplan.

Quote:

stoofer
Proper 'hats on wheels' stuff!.....Chapeaux!!!
Nurse!

Hats on wheels - now there's a phrase I've not heard for a long time.

Quote:

St Stokey.
I know it's the 6 nations but everything is being geared towards the next world Cup. Ford will be 34 by then. So if we don't start flooding the next generation now, we'll be going in with some inexperienced players. I'd start Mitchell, Fin and Fraser against Italy. If nothing else, they're tied to England while then continue to develop.
How annoying would it be if England allowed Fin and Fraser to choose to play for Scotland and for them to become the next Wilkinson or O'Driscoll, etc.

Playing a saints partnership would help bed them in.

Furbank
Freeman
Lawrence
Dingwall
Radwan
F Smith
Mitchell

That would do a proper job against Italy.

I think 99.9% would all agree with that unfortunately Borthwick has already gone public saying next WC is on the back burner and is looking to dominate this 6N. I think it will be more of the same with the only real changes being those enforced due to retirement or injury. Personally I’d be happy (ish) for a poor 6N if we are blooding some young players and trying to develop a new style of play

Quote:

St Stokey.
I think 99.9% would all agree with that unfortunately Borthwick has already gone public saying next WC is on the back burner and is looking to dominate this 6N. I think it will be more of the same with the only real changes being those enforced due to retirement or injury. Personally I’d be happy (ish) for a poor 6N if we are blooding some young players and trying to develop a new style of play

Mate, I agree and think most people do. I believe most people just want to see is a real plan and a direction. Then if how the team plays and results are not all that, at least there is an understanding about the whys and wherefores, and what they are attempting to build. And communication without either the arrogant bloviating and verbal diarrhea, or the stone cold silence with just a wee bit of the annoying Rugby platitudes. These are both extremes for sure (first EJ then Borthwick), but that is where we are. If the best coaching candidates have communication issues with the public, then hire them a mouthpiece. But talking to the fan base and potential fans is not optional any more. This ain't rocket science.
And that takes me back to how woefully lacking the RFU is with even the basics. And communication to your stakeholders in today's world is part of the fundamentals. And then they wonder why people don't seem as energised or interested about Rugby as in the past. Most of the answers lie in their mirrors....

Quote:

Saint Gordo

Quote:

St Stokey.
I think 99.9% would all agree with that unfortunately Borthwick has already gone public saying next WC is on the back burner and is looking to dominate this 6N. I think it will be more of the same with the only real changes being those enforced due to retirement or injury. Personally I’d be happy (ish) for a poor 6N if we are blooding some young players and trying to develop a new style of play

Mate, I agree and think most people do. I believe most people just want to see is a real plan and a direction. Then if how the team plays and results are not all that, at least there is an understanding about the whys and wherefores, and what they are attempting to build. And communication without either the arrogant bloviating and verbal diarrhea, or the stone cold silence with just a wee bit of the annoying Rugby platitudes. These are both extremes for sure (first EJ then Borthwick), but that is where we are. If the best coaching candidates have communication issues with the public, then hire them a mouthpiece. But talking to the fan base and potential fans is not optional any more. This ain't rocket science.
And that takes me back to how woefully lacking the RFU is with even the basics. And communication to your stakeholders in today's world is part of the fundamentals. And then they wonder why people don't seem as energised or interested about Rugby as in the past. Most of the answers lie in their mirrors....

Real opportunity, changing of the guard to some degree and with an exciting crop of young players to really put them front and centre and hammer the build up to the 6N, barely a whimper from anyone

Quote:

OldMarovian

Quote:

white lion
According to the BBC we have Hendy on the wing and Lockett in the second row. BBC rugby coverage is getting really sloppy.

In recent weeks we've had the tale of Mitchell at 10 for England, a link to the alternative that players association that "Kyle Sinckler" tried to set up and more. I know rugby isn't a top priority but it's really going down the pan.

Not wishing to exonerate the BBC for their shambolic reporting, the rest of the rugby press is no better when it comes to team listings. Many of the reports of our fabulous win over Bayonne include team listings that bear very little resemblance to the team that actually infilcted the damage.

Might i suggest tht hacks resorting to AI for their copy, make sure the date is correct at least

Quote:

St Stokey.
I think 99.9% would all agree with that unfortunately Borthwick has already gone public saying next WC is on the back burner and is looking to dominate this 6N. I think it will be more of the same with the only real changes being those enforced due to retirement or injury. Personally I’d be happy (ish) for a poor 6N if we are blooding some young players and trying to develop a new style of play

Whilst I like the idea of getting the youngsters in etc, I think Jones used the “building to the next wc” as an excuse for poor 6Ns results.

I want Borthwick to move on, but England have to get in the habit of trying to win. Otherwise 3 years pass, we have won nothing and no one has improved or learnt anything

The youngsters need to learn from the old timers how it is done and the level you need to play at to succeed at international level.

So whilst we should be picking a youngster over an old timer in any marginal calls, unless a player has retired from England duty, like Courtney, they should be picked if they are the best player in that position regardless whether they will make the next WC.

Unless they are very good why pick these old players?

Some of them will earn their place and thats good. But experience alone is no criteria for playing for England. Especially as it then stops new players getting theirs.

Pick on form. Some of those will be new, some old. But all will be playing well.

Don't pick on reputation alone, especially if they are injured.

It would be crazy not to pick players like Freeman and Furbank who are in amazing form. They might not be starting, but they should get game time.