Saints v Saracens - 29/03/24 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:05:09:04:19 by Saint Ted.

Mmmm, a few key players out injured. I guess we have to trust the squad depth but we’re thin at 3 and 9.
Sarries look very strong and set to build on their performance last week. MAybe all of their England players should be made to wear England shirts. With the exception of Earl, they all look so much better playing for Sarries than they do the national side! 😀

Two very strong teams. Speedy recovery to Mitchell and Furbank. To me that starting pack looks much better than last weeks and as such I expect you to be playing more off the front foot.
I hope the weather plays ball as its tipping it down right now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:28:12:34:39 by OldMarovian.

Shame about mitchell and furbank as they make massive difference. But 2 cracking teams. I worry about there bench. Mawi could have a field day and earl,dan and willis is some serious impact. Id also have scott young on bench instead of ludlam

Comparing the teams player against player not much in it for me between the starting 15's. They do look to have a stronger bench to me.

It will all come down to who can play better as a team on the day. Not sure they can be much better than last week or we can be much worse I certainly hope not.

Pretty big game for both sides can see this going any number of ways. Be a great game to put a real marker down after last week.

Decent ref which is good to see.

1-8 do look stronger
Hopefully we can get quick front foot ball and give the backs a chance to play

I know we are missing Mitchell and Furbank but having Freeman in the team always brings that extra dimension across the backs

Time to get positive
We will win this, it’ll be tight but we can do it

Let's hope we've put the game well and truly to bed before Ben Earl comes on! That's a very strong Saracens team and bench.

Both teams with the 6-2 split! Personally never a fan.

Both teams with the 6-2 split! Personally never a fan.[/quote]

Who goes to 10 if we lose Finn?

Our back row will have to work very hard. Two possible replacements looks sensible. Luds will probably be on relatively early and will bring huge energy.

Bit concerned with centres and lack of cover at 10.

Fingers crossed.

So even with home advantage and we are sitting top the bookies have Saracens odds on winners, even more since the teams were announced.
Hoping we may get a point to stay in touch with the top spot.

Glass half empty again Chris……..

Please that TJ is back - that is probably the best news. Not sure about Alex & Alex in the 2nd row - although Temu didn’t exactly rock the boat last week!

The forwards cover on the bench is good - equivalent to Sarries I think - but backs we are way off. I suspect McParland is there in case Fin or Tom can’t get to the end - Litchfield covers everything else.

If we play like we did at Bristol - this will be ugly. If we play as we did before the break this is gonna be close!

Please that TJ is back - that is probably the best news. Not sure about Alex & Alex in the 2nd row - although Temu didn’t exactly rock the boat last week!

The forwards cover on the bench is good - equivalent to Sarries I think - but backs we are way off. I suspect McParland is there in case Fin or Tom can’t get to the end - Litchfield covers everything else.

If we play like we did at Bristol - this will be ugly. If we play as we did before the break this is gonna be close!

Interesting that Ludlum is not first choice and Courtney now has the captaincy.

Quote:

FatAlan
Interesting that Ludlum is not first choice and Courtney now has the captaincy.

Lewis didn’t have that good a game last week
Seemed well off the mark

Maybe still suffering after effects of injury

Courtney was the only backrow player putting the hard yards in

It doesn’t come as a surprise to me

Not sure what the 10 option is if Fin has to go off early

Tommy used to play 10 at Kettering but that was a while ago and a lower level

Head says we will lose but if we have the same belief we had prior to the season break it will be close

Their backs are a bunch of old men now, we should be able to outrun any of them

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Deesaint

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FatAlan
Interesting that Ludlum is not first choice and Courtney now has the captaincy.

Lewis didn’t have that good a game last week
Seemed well off the mark

Maybe still suffering after effects of injury

Courtney was the only backrow player putting the hard yards in

It doesn’t come as a surprise to me

Doesn’t come as a surprise to me either. Must admit I was mulling over the captaincy situation bearing in mind the success Saints have had under Furbank in Ludlum's absence & now his decision to move on next season.

Quote:

ramseysaint
Their backs are a bunch of old men now, we should be able to outrun any of them

They certainly are not the threat they once were as an individual basis but they pretty much destroyed Quins last week who have a pretty useful backline. That might be a statement that doesn't age very well. Equally if it all clicks we might just do that.

The old men did pretty well against Harlequins at Spurs last week! I’ll be there wearing my wasps hat. And supporting the Saints. Sorry, but I never could stand Saracens, since the wages fiasco.

8-10 point game. It’s huge for our top 2 aspirations. We beat them away. We are at home. Time to show what we are made of.

So think we're missing 3 first choice players: Mitchell, Furbank and Hutchinson. And one bench player: Millar-Mills.

Whereas they're missing 2 first choice players: Itoje, Lozowski, and possibly one bench player (is Aled Davies ahead of Simpson?).

I may be wrong LS but I think the players you are missing are potentially more important, Mitchell and Furbank, in terms of how Saints play at their best.
Davies ahead of Simpson and Judge is 4th choice TH.
At this time of the season I think it's great to have two such full teams and am looking forward to a great game.

I fear saints will come out the blocks and be infront at half time but end up losing. Please prove me wrong saints

Quote:

OldMarovian
I may be wrong LS but I think the players you are missing are potentially more important, Mitchell and Furbank, in terms of how Saints play at their best.
Davies ahead of Simpson and Judge is 4th choice TH.
At this time of the season I think it's great to have two such full teams and am looking forward to a great game.

I agree with this. Mitchell, furbank and lawes are first names on team for us .

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Saint dolph

Quote:

OldMarovian
I may be wrong LS but I think the players you are missing are potentially more important, Mitchell and Furbank, in terms of how Saints play at their best.
Davies ahead of Simpson and Judge is 4th choice TH.
At this time of the season I think it's great to have two such full teams and am looking forward to a great game.

I agree with this. Mitchell, furbank and lawes are first names on team for us .

Along with freeman

I’d say Fin Smith is the hardest to replace then Mitchell

Quote:

Saint Maul
I’d say Fin Smith is the hardest to replace then Mitchell

Agreed

Whilst we have seen efforts to deal with Mitchell's position, I do not see a similar level of effort going into the Smith position.

That's a lot to due with Furbank and his FB/FH roll.
If Smith is injured then Furbank to FH, and we have at least two people to cover FB. Still think we should grooming a backup for Finn.

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John Rickerd
That's a lot to due with Furbank and his FB/FH roll.
If Smith is injured then Furbank to FH, and we have at least two people to cover FB. Still think we should grooming a backup for Finn.

Whilst I accept your point, look to those we have under contract at Scrum Half, and then look again at the effort around Fly Half. We have been lax for a long time, and have no real alternative to Fin if George is injured or is required to play FB.

Good start but same old mistakes letting them back in easy

There’s lots to admire here but we seem to be just losing ground a bit.

I have no idea of the rights or wrongs exactly but we do seem to be getting the raw end of the stick from Luke pierce. Bit of a lottery again

17-10 at half time I guess we’d take that!!

Things to work on… Catching* (except Courtney)

We need to complete more at the breakdown - courts nearly got one but otherwise not much.

Big kudos to Pearson and Augustus - they have been excellent.

We’ve scored 27 points in that half

Still need someone on the pitch calling the shots
To lose 3 breakdown s on the trot because Sarries put a few extra players in needed addressing early

No guards for our SH at the base
Needed someone there from the start not after the try

Just missing that 10% of basics
And being able to react

Great win

Soft try at the end notwithstanding, I am very happy with that.
I didn't see that coming, was quite concerned about a thumping, but shows that last week was an aberration.
Onwards!

What a finish!!
Congrats that was a cracking performance. Your defence was just magnificent. Made Sarries look very pedestrian in attack.
Further evidence if any were needed that Fin Smith should be starting ahead of Marcus too. Last week he showed well in a struggling side. This time orchestrated things beautifully with lots of good ball.
Good luck for the rest of the season.

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shendy
Soft try at the end notwithstanding, I am very happy with that.
I didn't see that coming, was quite concerned about a thumping, but shows that last week was an aberration.
Onwards!

Wot he said!

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shendy
Soft try at the end notwithstanding, I am very happy with that.
I didn't see that coming, was quite concerned about a thumping, but shows that last week was an aberration.
Onwards!

Not just at the end, we gifted two others, the scoreline flattered them.

Get me off the ceiling

Hopefully Saints are treating Sarries to a full volume
Shoe Army

Still a couple of areas to work on but what a win

That didn't suck.

Who believes Dingwall will be captain next season?

Thanks OM, I always enjoy your contributions and your graciousness in defeat is a reminder of why rugby is such a special sport.

Well done this eve, fellas.

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shendy
Who believes Dingwall will be captain next season?

I am a bit traditional and usually prefer my captains coming from the pack. That said, Dingwall has already led the team in other games and he put in a shift that screams follow me. Wouldn't surprise me at all!

Fantastic. Will enjoy the journey home in the morning.
Play that and we stand a chance against Munster 😁

That was the kind of game we buy our season tickets for!

Great win, great atmosphere. Scoreline flatters saracens. We gave them 2 tries for free. Plus that was pretty much there first choice apart from earl starts and they would have maro .

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Chris Hoddle
Fantastic. Will enjoy the journey home in the morning.
Play that and we stand a chance against Munster 😁

That's a pretty negative stance, Fin has already bossed McCarthy once this season.

A lot of positives but I particularly liked the back row balance and thought the front row deserve a lot of praise. Davison put in a long shift and was an unsung hero in my mind.

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SWSaint
A lot of positives but I particularly liked the back row balance and thought the front row deserve a lot of praise. Davison put in a long shift and was an unsung hero in my mind.

Thought the pack did a great job, had them on toast in 2nd half.

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SWSaint
A lot of positives but I particularly liked the back row balance and thought the front row deserve a lot of praise. Davison put in a long shift and was an unsung hero in my mind.

... and Langdon. The win was built on the forward performance. Pearson is at last begining to produce for saints.

Set piece was great today. Really solid in the scrum. No issues on our ball (100%?) at the lineout, and nicked a few of theirs in the second half. And maul defence was great.

And despite his charge down, thought Tom James was excellent today. Looked like a real leader out there.

Stand out players for me where: Smith, Langdon, Lawes, James and Sleightholme. But I can't think of anyone who didn't stand up.

If we can keep people fit in a relentless run-in, this 23 with Mitchell, Furbank, Hutchinson and Millar-Mills added back in, will be some prospect.

Quote:

Deesaint
Get me off the ceiling
Hopefully Saints are treating Sarries to a full volume
Shoe Army

They sure did. They even had a (ex!) Wasps fan of 37 years, singing Oh when the Saints. Great win. Didn’t see it coming, like many others. Great atmosphere. Might see me permanently converting my allegiance to the Shoe army, if you’ll have me! (Strong family links to Northants/Bucks). . I’m in Croatia next week, but will be following the Munster game with interest. Even got to chat briefly with Pete Nutall, which was nice, given he was at Wasps for many years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:21:22:21 by Buzzer.

I don't think you "gave" Sarries trys anymore than we did to you with numbered up defence not taking the right man. That's what happens when sides play under pressure. You make mistakes you wouldn't ordinarily.

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Rutland Saint
Thanks OM, I always enjoy your contributions and your graciousness in defeat is a reminder of why rugby is such a special sport.

Seemed good spirit at the game and on the field too.
I'm interested to see if the manner in which Pearce refereed is consistently applied through the weekend. I quite liked it although I thought he pretty heavily favored the attacking side (whichever that was) at the breakdown.

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Buzzer

Quote:

Deesaint
Get me off the ceiling
Hopefully Saints are treating Sarries to a full volume
Shoe Army

They sure did. They even had a (ex!) Wasps fan of 37 years, singing Oh when the Saints. Great win. Didn’t see it coming, like many others. Great atmosphere. Might see me permanently converting my allegiance to the Shoe army, if you’ll have me! (Strong family links to Northants/Bucks. . I’m in Croatia next week, but will be following the Munster game with interest. Even got to chat briefly with Pete Nutall, which was nice, given he was at Wasps for many years.

There’s a bit of history with Sarries winning a game at the gardens and celebrating very loudly in their changing room
Caused some bad feelings

I posted before the game it was time to show what we are made of.

There was some lovely attacking play. Sleightholme’s wonderful jinking run beating 6 defenders leading to Ramm scoring. Against a quality defence taking the ball to the line and last minute/delayed passes by Smith for the Coles and Ramm tries and Dingwall for Freeman’s try was beautiful.

Whilst that was impressive; what really showed what we are made of was the work off the ball. The defensive set when Sarries were on our line just before half time - in previous years we’d have conceded. Then Smith keeping the ball infield to avoid a 50:22 and the work to prevent a penalty and clear our lines were standout examples. Defences like that are capable of winning titles.

It was a huge statement win against a play off rival and sends a message to the other teams last weekend was a blip and they need to be worried about us. Doing the double over Sarries will help psychologically should we meet them in play-offs.

It’s a tricky run in. We should win our two home games v Tigers and Gloucester. But to get into the top 2 we may need to win one of the away games v Quins or Bath when results will be crucial to their play off aspirations. Bonus points could prove crucial.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:09:12:28 by Saint Maul.

Brilliant performance the best I have seen for a long while.

What was especially pleasing was we looked like a team, you could pick any number of players who had a good game but would struggle to pick one who had a bad one. Our defence was absolutely top draw and we looked like a team who knew what they were doing, as was the set piece. The game management was good taking points when they were on offer.

Our attack was also very pleasing in that it was wasn't high risk we will score or they will score stuff but well worked and executed moves, our forth try was just a coaches dream.

As I said after the Bristol game one performance doesn't make a bad side or a good one and we need to trust and keep working on the systems that got us where we are but that was special, a real joy to watch.

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Santiago
Pearson is at last begining to produce for saints.

Um, I thought he'd been pretty damn good for us so far this season!

The performance from the pack was night and day over last week. Changed personnel made a big difference.

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shendy

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Santiago
Pearson is at last begining to produce for saints.

Um, I thought he'd been pretty damn good for us so far this season!

I don't feel he's produced the mom performances he did week in week out for Irish and he did for England A. I'm looking for those performances

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Saint Kris
That was the kind of game we buy our season tickets for!

Correct and not meaningless friendlies to replace 3 competitive league games

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Santiago

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Chris Hoddle
Fantastic. Will enjoy the journey home in the morning.
Play that and we stand a chance against Munster 😁

That's a pretty negative stance, Fin has already bossed McCarthy once this season.

Mate, I get where you are coming from, but I don't want to go there until this group of Saints puts a season of solid rocking performances together. To be fair, this season does have a bit of the good Jim Mallinder days feel to it, and yesterdays performance was orgasmic. Losses will always happen - the other guys get paid to play, too. But, to me, the signs are finally pointing firmly in the right direction. The defense yesterday was very good, loved that 18-20 phase defensive stand in the second half. This group, with the exception of the Courtney Lawes and a few others are generally young and are still improving.

Another positive was that we also didn't appear to pick up any new injuries. (Fingers Crossed)

It's been fascinating that there gave been so many up and down performances and I think managing the mental as well as physical side of things is huge for the run in.
Watching yourselves and Quins, sides who maybe didn't turn up like they wish they had last week putting out huge performances (at least in the first 50 for Quins) and sides like Sarries and Bath struggle has made these games incredibly exciting if somewhat taxing.

Brilliant performance.. Shout out to the bench, Graham (again, what a fantastic signing he's been), Ludlum in particular really added some energy at a crucial part of the game. Really struggled to pick out star players as 1-15 were excellent. Really loved Pearson getting stuck into Earl when we won a scrum penalty with a mock celebration. TBF to Earl no reaction at all, he is annoyingly rather good.

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Walks11
Brilliant performance.. Shout out to the bench, Graham (again, what a fantastic signing he's been), Ludlum in particular really added some energy at a crucial part of the game. Really struggled to pick out star players as 1-15 were excellent. Really loved Pearson getting stuck into Earl when we won a scrum penalty with a mock celebration. TBF to Earl no reaction at all, he is annoyingly rather good.

I confess I do like Ben Earl. His celebration after his charge down and try was perfect. Much like Ellis Genge kissing Alex Waller after a little contretemps they had.

I hope that TP's attitude is the start of the edge we have been talking about for some time. We are still "too nice". Laughing at your opponent does not have the same effect!

Agree with your comments on the subs. Ludlam in particular. Graham is close to being my pick of the bunch. As was said elsewhere, very much in the Sam Dickinson mold.

Fascinating that seven teams have the exact same win-loss record at 8 win, 6 losses. That is really strange at this point in the season. The only teams which are not included in that group are Saints (10-4), Gloucester (4-10), and Newcastle. I guess if it shows us anything, it is that the Premiership is fairly well balanced.

If we can have a stinker next week now it is appreciated.
Concentrate on the premiership this year.

I only managed to watch the game tonight, but also managed to avoid the score which was fortuitous.

A wonderful game of rugby, great advert for the sport - two extremely different styles in play.

Nothing to detract from Saracens though in that game, it was a very sporting contest, the right level of winding up between the teams to ensure they probably had a few pints after the game with no harm done and at the end of the day Sarries went hell for leather. We did not beat a team that sat down - all of their tries were tatically impressive, so I think we can take pride in the win, pay tribute to an impressive opponent, and look forward to the next one.

Ben Earl is some player, it has to be said.

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Saint Gordo
Fascinating that seven teams have the exact same win-loss record at 8 win, 6 losses. That is really strange at this point in the season. The only teams which are not included in that group are Saints (10-4), Gloucester (4-10), and Newcastle. I guess if it shows us anything, it is that the Premiership is fairly well balanced.

It also helps us in our top 2 ambitions. If equal on points it comes down to number of wins. So it probably means other teams will have to score more points than us assuming we win our two remaining home games. So Sarries, for example, would need to score 8 more points than us over the last 4 games even though there is only 7 points between us given we are currently on 49 and Sarries on 42.

Very few turn overs during the game. I may be wrong but I think that when brought to ground Saracens were very cute in laying on top of the ball for a fraction of a second before rolling. It just gave them a tiny advantage in allowing their support to arrive and preventing Saints getting hands on the ball. If I am right it was another example of them being slightly ahead of the game in exploiting the laws, this time on the pitch. I may be imaging it of course.

You almost certainly werent imagining it 195Rich as all teams try and get away with what they can.
Equally I definitely wasn't imagining Saints players continuously rolling back towards Sarries 9 to obstruct him. I know that not least becsuse the referee warned Saints several times without penalising them but that's all part of the game and the onus was on Sarries to highlight it further.

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OldMarovian
You almost certainly werent imagining it 195Rich as all teams try and get away with what they can.
Equally I definitely wasn't imagining Saints players continuously rolling back towards Sarries 9 to obstruct him. I know that not least becsuse the referee warned Saints several times without penalising them but that's all part of the game and the onus was on Sarries to highlight it further.

Van Zyl did try to highlight it to Pearce but was ignored.

Not one of Luke Pearce’s better nights for both sides! (And I do think he’s the best English Referee nowadays)

Tbh tigersimon I thought he had a good game.
Ofc there were small things and in retrospect his hurrying of Smiths kick was wrong but otherwise I thought the tempo of play he encouraged was good and he gave both sides plenty of warning before penalising slow play.
Tbh one if the bigger disappointments on what was an otherwise exciting weekend of rugby was that his performance was an outligher rather than the new norm.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Tbh tigersimon I thought he had a good game.
Ofc there were small things and in retrospect his hurrying of Smiths kick was wrong but otherwise I thought the tempo of play he encouraged was good and he gave both sides plenty of warning before penalising slow play.
Tbh one if the bigger disappointments on what was an otherwise exciting weekend of rugby was that his performance was an outligher rather than the new norm.

A very balanced view. Sometimes (often in fact) not giving penalties for every possible offence makes the game flow but obviously there is always a trade off in letting too much go. In this case I thought he was good throughout and both teams basically listened to him rather than ignoring him and giving away endless penalties.

That's a great point that is often missed ajack.
The teams also bear responsibility for making the game flow.
Ignoring the referee so you are excessively penalised is often called out as poor or pedantic refereeing yet we rarely say the teams are ruining the game through negative play or failing to adapt.

Quote:

OldMarovian
That's a great point that is often missed ajack.
The teams also bear responsibility for making the game flow.
Ignoring the referee so you are excessively penalised is often called out as poor or pedantic refereeing yet we rarely say the teams are ruining the game through negative play or failing to adapt.

I'm not sure I can agree with the sentiment regarding the teams.

I know how "upset" members of this forum were getting a couple of seasons ago, when we were giving away penalties like sweets.

We would occasionally include the ref, but only when they were "special"*

I wasn't criticising Saracens, in fact complementing their coaching staff for being ahead of the game and noting that their clever tactic prevented turn overs.

I got that. As I said all teams try and use tactics to negate the opposition.
The reality is the game of rugby is fairly heavily influenced (on the playing field!!) by who can cheat the laws best or "play the referee"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:03:16:18:23 by OldMarovian.

All the slowing down at the breakdown is interpreted differently by different refs and you have to adapt. But the offsides from sarries were really obvious and I cannot see why they didn't give away more pens there .( They were harder to spot when watching back on TV. Than they were in the ground.)

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OldMarovian
I got that. As I said all teams try and use tactics to negate the opposition.
The reality is the game of rugby is fairly heavily influenced (on the playing field!!) by who can cheat the laws best or "play the referee"

It has ever been thus.
'Playing the referee' has always been a badge of honour.