Saints v Quins - 27th April 2024 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:03:08:09:02 by Saint Ted.

Looking good. No Hendy or Langdon so hopefully a rest before next week.

Hendy listed as unavailable

Surprised to see both Coles & Moon missing, presumably rested as not listed as N/A.
Looks like Lockett is ahead of Munga in the pecking order!

Quote:

FatAlan
Looking good. No Hendy or Langdon so hopefully a rest before next week.

Langdon obviously rested, but Hendy behind Ramm, Sleightholme, and Furbank and a 6-2 bench.

Also rested - the Alexi, needed for Croke Park.

There are reports of 50k at Twickenham and 82k sell out at Croke Park. When did Saints (or any other prem club) last play in front of 130k in two weeks?

I find it hard to understand why Ludham is captain, he is leaving the club. George Furbank captained us through a long run of victories, that put us in the position were in now and should be captain IMO.

Wonder how many Saints folk are heading down to Twickers ..or up in my case?

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John Rickerd
I find it hard to understand why Ludham is captain, he is leaving the club. George Furbank captained us through a long run of victories, that put us in the position were in now and should be captain IMO.

continuity i suppose?

Ludlam has made it very clear that he wants to see out his Saints career with a significant trophy or two. Let his passion drive the team forwards. Furbank can still make positive impacts from within the leadership group. Same as Courts, same as Dingwall.


Who selected the captain? is it just the DoR and coaches or does the team have an impact. They must see some value in his leadership.

These days, Captain is as much of an admin title as anything. It indicates who can and can't chat with the Ref quite so freely. Tactical decisions come from the leadership group and coaches.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:12:47:48 by St Stokey..

The captain plays a huge role in terms of motivation. There are crucial decisions to be made. Vital work during the week.
Furbs has been brilliant as skipper, Luds might not make the starting team at times, but he is our leader until he goes.

Looking forward to Litchfield vs Esterhuizen, will be a test for Tom. Pleased to see sensible squad rotation but maintaining strength in key positions. Disappointing no Pearson, he’d be in my Cup Semi team but only with 30mins off the bench this week. Hopefully we’ll have him for the playoffs and the finals 😊

Will be a test for the pack, almost the same 8 that started against Bristol
Except Lockett for Coles. Chance to redeem themselves.

Quins have gone full bore. It shows the advantage Leinster have of resting their first team before the semi compared to English sides.

We need a controlled game and not falling into the chaotic open field approach Quins thrive on.

If our defence can put them under pressure and win the gainline battle it will put us into a strong place as Quins fall into the trap of risky running from their own half/22 when they don’t get gainline ascendancy and get inpatient. It showed in the Sale game last weekend when they tried to run it at times when it wasn’t on. A bit like Saints of old.

Lynagh’s defence can be really lacklustre and suspect so let’s put him under pressure with up and unders and a nice big present of a flanker running down his channel on the wing.

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Deesaint
Will be a test for the pack, almost the same 8 that started against Bristol
Except Lockett for Coles. Chance to redeem themselves.

Oops, could be painful. 🤔

No surprise that Quins are ‘full bore’ - big investment playing just down the road in front of loads of casual supporters ! I guess we can afford to lose whereas they really can’t - I just hope Saints come home with some points in the bag. Leinster must be laughing their little leprechaun socks off !

In Dows we trust...Saints side is strong too so I feel we will come away with a W



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:16:19:57 by Saintlyg.

I see our Ref will be Mr Dickson.

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Gwendoline
I see our Ref will be Mr Dickson.

How moronic is it of the referee scheduling that an ex harlequin player is put in charge of a harlequinns game. For all the referees available how can they end up with this, totally unbelievable

Yup, discussed to death on another tread and highlighted in the Chron too but it is what it is so we’ll all just have to accept the situation with good grace.

After the Bath v Sarries result, if we get 60 points we are guaranteed a home semi (being on 54 points and more wins) assuming we get 5 v Gloucester at home then 1 bonus point is enough from the Quins game.

So yes for momentum and for belief’s sake beating Quins is still important. But for game tactics we need to strive for the try bonus. if we are approaching the whistle with a losing bonus point then no high risk moves that could endanger the losing bonus point. As much as winning would be brilliant, kick the ball off once past 80 and take the losing bonus point. A home semi is what matters most.

If we already have the try bonus and can win then I’d risk dropping the losing bonus point to try and win the game as 1 bonus point really should be enough and winning ahead of Leinster and the play offs helps. Sarries showed their big game mentality beating Bath away. Hopefully we can show that we are developing that same mindset v Quins. COYS!!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:08:37:15 by Saint Maul.

Looking forward to this game. Hopefully the weather doesn't spoil the party.
I'd not be devastated by a Quins win but love how Saints are playing and wish you the best.

Very scrappy in the backs from us. Not taken advantage of the yellow

Been a horrible start from us. Couldn't catch a cold, very inaccurate. Can only get better though on the positive.

Too many errors and mispasses with nothing from the yellow time. Really looking like mismatch in our game from other weeks

We need to get it together and fast, we are giving them way too much with our scrappy nature at the moment

Nice try, if slightly fortunate it wasn't pulled back. Looked 'flat' to me the last pass!

Two yellow cards and nothing from them. Error after error costing us territory and points

Strange call at the end. But, I'm not sure we deserved to go in a point up. Wasted lots of Chances, decision making and handling just not there. Being caught up here trying to play too much.

What a frustrating half! 3/4 golden chances knackered

Absolute ridiculous decision by the TMO and Dickson. There is no way mitchel had that ball with both hands on it and it was the foot that knocked it forward!

When an ex Quins player disallows a try like that, there has to be questions to the RFU for selecting him for the game in the first place. Dreadful decision

That aside, we are well off our best. The Saints we have seen all season need to come out firing next half

Let’s hope that was the bad half with the better forty coming up.

Certainly lacking precision in the first half. However we seem to get stronger as te game goes on and them having been a player down for half the game should only add to that.

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chappers_saint
When an ex Quins player disallows a try like that, there has to be questions to the RFU for selecting him for the game in the first place. Dreadful decision
That aside, we are well off our best. The Saints we have seen all season need to come out firing next half

To be fair, that was all TMO in that decision. But I agree, RFU should have never put Dickson in this position.

Both Smith and Furbank having unusually poor games. Big venue nerves?
Call to rule out the last try seemed wrong.

Dreadful tmo decision. Why did Dickson say you’ll
Have to help me out with this one and not view it himself?? We have been poor especially with them having 2 yellows cards.

Good to see we have cut out the errors from the first half...Need to wake up and quickly

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herbie85

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chappers_saint
When an ex Quins player disallows a try like that, there has to be questions to the RFU for selecting him for the game in the first place. Dreadful decision
That aside, we are well off our best. The Saints we have seen all season need to come out firing next half

To be fair, that was all TMO in that decision. But I agree, RFU should have never put Dickson in this position.

Ref has the final say, he could just as easily say that he doesn't see a clear knock on from the SH and stick with the on field decision.

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chappers_saint

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herbie85

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chappers_saint
When an ex Quins player disallows a try like that, there has to be questions to the RFU for selecting him for the game in the first place. Dreadful decision
That aside, we are well off our best. The Saints we have seen all season need to come out firing next half

To be fair, that was all TMO in that decision. But I agree, RFU should have never put Dickson in this position.

Ref has the final say, he could just as easily say that he doesn't see a clear knock on from the SH and stick with the on field decision.

I agree, but the TMO initially flagged it up, then directly says to him the 9 has knocked it on, when Dickson asked the question as to boot or hand. So I'm not sure too many officials, ex quins or otherwise that would then go again TMO, given the angles and time they have.

Brainless rugby, as soon as they go down to 14 men. So wasteful.

Another yellow card and the defenders were no where near there and still dosent consider a penalty try even with two saints players there going forward. Useless refereeing by Dickson yet again

Really poor this. RFU have put Dickson in a position where he has potentially not yellow carded his mate, as he knew he was sending him off.

Disgrace

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herbie85
Really poor this. RFU have put Dickson in a position where he has potentially not yellow carded his mate, as he knew he was sending him off.

He's a coward!

Disgraceful from Dickson! He was going to his pocket until he realised who it was...

Is there a spare seat on the anti Dickson band wagon? I’m jumping on. Idiot.

And that is why Dickson should never have been refereeing this. Care should have been second yellow and red. Disgraceful refereeing looked for every reason not to yellow him

Karl dickson still the worst ref in rugby

Just farcical. I can’t believe this is happening

I’ll have a return please.
Ridiculous officiating.

Chiefs fan in peace, Dickson's incompetence is staggering.

We all knew Dickson was potentially a huge issue for this fixture. If we knew that then presumably someone else at the RFU knew that but still they selected him. I don’t think anything else needs to be said other than admitting that Saints were off their game today.

We haven't played at all well overall. But, this game has been decided, by a bloke who should never have been appointed. I know it's not the 'saints' way and dowson loathe to moan, but I hope there are some conversations occurring with the RFU

Bath fan - Dickson absolutely bottled that Care call as soon he realised what he'd have to do.

Error strewn performance capped by a long throw in with no one near it and then passes that are so weak

Regardless of the incompetence of the referee, we made it so tough for ourselves. Bad lines out, handling errors, no answer yet again to being counter rucked, giving away needless penalties and poor line speed. By Saints' current standards, that was a poor performance.

It was and we spurned numerous chances. However these big decisions changed the game. Replacement 9 scored two tries after what should have been a red! We were unlucky not to score a couple of easy run ins due to deliberate knock one’s and double unlucky not to earn a pen try for either.

Strange TMO decision, but on balance saints first try could quite have easily been scrubbed
The decision to not card Care in the second half was just bizarre
Ultimately though, Saints made too many errors, if they had been more clinical the officiating wouldn’t have been so detrimental

Think Dickson should stay off social media for a bit.
Classy stuff from Dowson but he must be annoyed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:17:09:44 by OldMarovian.

Lets be real saints played poor and could of sneaked a win. But dickson 100 percent backed out of red carding care.

Not sure who was most poor, us with our overplaying and simple errors, or Dickson and the other officials. Bottled the red on Care when he realised it would be a second yellow (suspect the yellow would have been brandished had it not been a player already carded - Care's face as he was substituted said it all!) and surely Tom James was jackalled at the end before one phase later it's penalty Quins?

Quins, for what it's worth, looked very dangerous - insofar as attacking chances go I think they took them all except the time Lynagh threw a speculative pass over his shoulder as Freeman tackled him.

This will certainly makes for an interesting Euro semi final weekend - Quins go into it with feathers up; we go into it with wrongs to right!

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Stockers
Regardless of the incompetence of the referee, we made it so tough for ourselves. Bad lines out, handling errors, no answer yet again to being counter rucked, giving away needless penalties and poor line speed. By Saints' current standards, that was a poor performance.

+1

Langdon, Moon and Coles missed big time today.

Good luck for next week.

Actually thought the locks went pretty well. Put themselves about. A lot of changes led to a less than ideal defensive performance.

Two things can be true at the same time. We were error strewn and didn’t capitalise on their yellow cards.
Dickson was an absolute joke.

Better to have a kick up the bum match this weekend whilst we are still in a good position in the league than have it next week with nowhere to go.

Look how we responded after Bristol away…. Just worried that our away form is not as strong.

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NGSB

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Stockers
Regardless of the incompetence of the referee, we made it so tough for ourselves. Bad lines out, handling errors, no answer yet again to being counter rucked, giving away needless penalties and poor line speed. By Saints' current standards, that was a poor performance.

+1

Langdon, Moon and Coles missed big time today.

Agree, Langdon in particular can set the tone, both carrying and defensively.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:17:38:47 by herbie85.

Appalling from Dick. As others said he was reaching into his pocket before he realised... Totally spineless.

But we were inaccurate. Obviously missing a few regular starters but we will have to improve greatly to trouble Leinster next week.

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Saint.Kenneth
Better to have a kick up the bum match this weekend whilst we are still in a good position in the league than have it next week with nowhere to go.
Look how we responded after Bristol away…. Just worried that our away form is not as strong.

Exactly my thoughts. I'd rather have the self-examination and rueing of what could have been this week than next. And it looks like we've come away from the game without any injuries? (Not sure what happened with the HIA check though - was that on Sleightholme?)

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Saint Ted
Strange TMO decision, but on balance saints first try could quite have easily been scrubbed
The decision to not card Care in the second half was just bizarre
Ultimately though, Saints made too many errors, if they had been more clinical the officiating wouldn’t have been so detrimental

That is the only time I have seen the Saints try mentioned, which looked forward. Also Lawes lucky not to give away a penalty late on.

The Care decision was just awful as many have said he clearly went to his pocket until he realised the consequences.

Still with them having so many players in the bin it was our own inadequacies that cost us the game. We simply lacked the precision we have shown lately.

I confess - I have not read all the comments preceding my own. Just a quick skim.

But the appointment of Karl Dickson as ref was guaranteed to create the arguments we are seeing. It matters not, if they are right or wrong. The ref and his decisions should not be the talking points.

One maybe. Two, at a stretch. But he was really let down by his support team. The last Danny Care incident - the touch judges were mute! Useless.

Whoever thought it was a good idea to appoint him should be removed from the post.

First try by Sleightholme could well have been scrubbed for a forward pass, later effort by Graham should’ve stood IMO, so that’s maybe level pegging?

Absolutely, however, bottled Cares second yellow. Might /might not have won from there but likely denied us a second match point.

OK. The way I am looking at this is that we just blooded a lot of players at Twickers. Nerves were evident. Big stage panic. But next time we are there then the players know what to expect.
We could have won that, we should have won. So we are still playing right. Just haven’t seen these mistakes for a while.
I am not ruling out that this was part of Dowsons plan

I know we just lost to them but with our gun 15 out i feel quins are easier to beat than bristol, bath and sarries. Lets hope they finish 4th. We were miles off it today and still could of won

We were really poor. We just didn’t look fully switched on. Error-strewn. But thankfully we got the all-important bonus point that means if we get a try bonus win v Gloucester we get a home semi-final. But not the best preparation for Leinster.

Also, nobody has mentioned it yet, but we saw yet another instance of running down the clock from a penalty to eke out time (and in this case end the match). See also recent comments about Luke Pearce either hurrying up the kicker or allowing the full 90 seconds to be taken.

As a spectator I really hate that ... the sooner we switch to allowing time for a kick to be taken but not counting that time from the game, the better.

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chappers_saint

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herbie85
Really poor this. RFU have put Dickson in a position where he has potentially not yellow carded his mate, as he knew he was sending him off.

He's a coward!

His hand was on the way for a card. Then he realised the outcome ???

Says it all...

[twitter.com]

That was a very very tough one to take for all the reasons said above. I think we’ve really missed Pearson in games like that. But we have come up short again in a big away occasion, so there remains a question about us away from home and under the pump. Quins were lucky but they seemed to outlast us in physicality and pace in the last 10 mins which was a worry, we started to look ragged and tired. Hope we can bounce back but plenty for Leinster to enjoy today.

Quins just wanted it and needed it more than Saints today and it showed in Saints sloppy performance.

Ok, a couple of hours on and it seems to me that Saints took a bit of a gamble on this one as far as forward selection is concerned - this is not to say that the lads did not try their best but we were lacking at least five experienced players in the pack not including Pearson who is of course still injured. Quins are a physical outfit and played that way throughout, they rode their luck and were pressing right to the death - they too of course have European commitments next weekend but went very strong in their line up today which they needed to for their Premiership ambitions. Saints could afford to lose today without too much prejudice, Quins could not.

There is little point saying any more about the referee other than that the outcry from Saints fans and beyond will change nothing - it was a totally unnecessary problem which was the making of those who made the refereeing selection in the first place. I do wonder exactly what brief ‘assistant referees’ are actually given because so many seem to contribute very little other than giving impressions of nodding donkeys - are they intimidated by high profile referees ?

So where do our priorities actually lie in the next few weeks ? We have had bruising encounters against Tigers and Quins - six point haul but could have been better. Meanwhile a great many Leinster ‘stars’ have been at home preparing for Croke Park. I’m not saying a victory in Ireland is impossible, Leicester gave them a run for their money for sixty minutes and currently Saints are a better outfit than Tigers. Fortunately for Saints, Gloucester do not have a weekend off next week as they have their own semi-final to contend with themselves. We are a match for anyone at Franklins Gardens so that home semi-final is crucial and it will be more than interesting to see the selections for the next two games.

Pity we didnt kick out the restart and keep the other bonus point.

Ignoring the obvious issue - which ought to see Dickson's career take a dive - it seemed to me that we were playing next week's knock out match. Why did we take two penalties in the first half, surely the priority at that stage should have been the try bonus point?

A team typically must look to win the game first, then go for the extras.
Why on earth would we not take points when on offer in a tight game.
I'll struggle to ever forget that game against Sarries at MK when a simple kick in front of the posts would have taken us 3 scores clear. We kicked to the corner, messed it up and lost in the last minute.

Premiership Rugby already trying to cover it up - “ Planet Rugby sought clarity from Premiership officials who explained the complexity of the law surrounding the decision, which resulted in it not being an additional yellow card.

“As it is a tackle only situation, then Care can dive to make a tackle or onto the ball when Alex Mitchell has lifted the ball off the ground. A ruck had not yet formed and Care had also come from an onside position.”

[www.planetrugby.com]

First Care pushes Ramm off the ball taking him out of the game. Then he just dives off his feet to kill the ball as Mitchell is trying to play it. All just 7m from his own tryline.

Irrespective of whether many don't think you deserved to win, the implications of @#$%& non decision could be huge. Not only the fact that Quins replacement 9 scored 2 tries, but Care would've missed at least one game, Quins 5 points could see them in the top 4 at someone else's expense. Then to see Care and Money laugh it off just makes it worse.

The most serious point above is given how close the table is IF Quins qualify top4 whoever was 5th will have a genuine complaint about £1000s in lost revenue as well, obviously, as the chance to win the Prem.

On a more general note that wasn't a great Saints performance by your own very high standards.
Do you feel it was a one-off or did the big event get to some of your players?
Really hoping for full-fat, unhomogernised Saints v Leinster! 😀 100% believe you have an "upset" in you but will need to be at your best.

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Saints had a player who came in from the side, bypassed the ruck entirely and took out a Quins player some distance behind the ruck

Hilariously, the above opinion is on the Quins board as part of a longer ramble as to why Care was perfectly legal.

Unreal.

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OldMarovian
The most serious point above is given how close the table is IF Quins qualify top4 whoever was 5th will have a genuine complaint about £1000s in lost revenue as well, obviously, as the chance to win the Prem.
On a more general note that wasn't a great Saints performance by your own very high standards.
Do you feel it was a one-off or did the big event get to some of your players?
Really hoping for full-fat, unhomogernised Saints v Leinster! 😀 100% believe you have an "upset" in you but will need to be at your best.

Ah the delights of rotation -had we not been playing Ireland next week at Croke Park, I would have expected Waller, Langdon, Moon, Coles and Augustus to have started the game in the pack which is not to say that their replacements did a bad job, more a question of experience. Fraser Dingwall is so important to Saints but he needed a break and so was reduced to the bench. It wasn’t a great performance by Saints but whatever they did, the day will be remembered for other things which were avoidable and which were spoken about on the days before the game.

OK, if we accept for the sake of argument that Care is making a tackle. Where are the arms? Where's the wrap?

Additionally if there's no ruck, who's the player who was in the position to have formed one? That'd be James Ramm, who Care pushed out of the way first.

Sorry, but the officiating team had a shocker there, regardless of any questions about bias. And if Mitchell had been able to get clean ball as he otherwise would, that was a pretty certain try in the corner for Ludlam.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:17:07:11 by Matthew.

Quote:

Chief Bert
Irrespective of whether many don't think you deserved to win, the implications of @#$%& non decision could be huge. Not only the fact that Quins replacement 9 scored 2 tries, but Care would've missed at least one game, Quins 5 points could see them in the top 4 at someone else's expense. Then to see Care and Money laugh it off just makes it worse.

Time for TNT to refresh their commentary team? I'd hope Monye will apologise today, but I doubt it. TV presenters have a sell by date and he may have accelerated his.

Quote:

OldMarovian
On a more general note that wasn't a great Saints performance by your own very high standards.
Do you feel it was a one-off or did the big event get to some of your players?

I don't really think it was either we just weren't at our best on the day and were beaten by a better side on the day. Quins are also in the European cup semi final and fighting for a to four place in a show case game for them so it was always going to be a tough game.

While it clearly divides opinion on here Dowson rotates the squad more than any other DOR. Probably Munster was the last time we saw our cup final side. I would expect us to go full out against Leinster and then not again until the semi final of the premiership and the finals if we get to either of them.

The biggest concern for me was that we are usually stronger as the game goes on and Quins were a man down for 30 minutes but still looked stronger than us at the end. I didn't feel any of the players coming in let the side down more that the big names were a few percent off their best which happens. If you can beat any opposition in every game there is something wrong with the competition.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:11:30:15 by ajack.

No disrespect to Saints players or coaches but think it’s just that Top 1%.
Quins knew yesterday was Season defining in terms of Top 4 and were therefore desperate for the win.
Saints knew it wasn’t last chance saloon and unconsciously this can impact on performance.

Personally I believe we missed Langdon, Cole’s and Moon
in the pack

KD should never have been put in that position

Andrew Jackson, the TMO, has been equally incompetent, although less over-promoted, for years. How he failed to see the boot kicking the ball for Graham 'try' is a mystery.

Don’t have ex players commentating on their old team, especially when it’s their only team. Like Monue.

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Santiago
Ignoring the obvious issue - which ought to see Dickson's career take a dive - it seemed to me that we were playing next week's knock out match. Why did we take two penalties in the first half, surely the priority at that stage should have been the try bonus point?

Wrong Captain ? as I posted before, Furbank has captained us successfully, and should have been Captain.

If a player does something wrong, or deemed wrong in review, a panel will investigate and if required act against the individual. Findings are made public etc. papers get some articles and players feel the rap.Refs appear to be fallible, we hear nothing of whether their decisions get questioned other than red cards being overturned. These situations have wider impact than just saints, it’s a close league and other clubs success, finances, jobs and future are on the line for this just to get put aside.

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John Rickerd

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Santiago
Ignoring the obvious issue - which ought to see Dickson's career take a dive - it seemed to me that we were playing next week's knock out match. Why did we take two penalties in the first half, surely the priority at that stage should have been the try bonus point?

Wrong Captain ? as I posted before, Furbank has captained us successfully, and should have been Captain.

Equally you get a bonus point for being within 7 points so there is merit in both decisions. Maybe it was thought putting pressure on Quins would make them make more mistakes we could capitalise on.

Very valid points about the impact of rotation and possibly leadership. That said the important attacking elements; Mitchell, Smith, Furbank were in place.
I think you won the 30 minutes a man up 10-7 which is probably not reflective of the score you'd normally expect to build during that time.

A don’t know about others but still stewing on yesterday. Having attended the game I made the mistake of watching the replay today which revealed just how bad the officiating was (and not just Dickson, I’d include the TMO and touchdown officials who in their own words had ‘nothing to add’). Dickson is an average ref at best but appears to be the RFU accelerated poster boy because he way a player. But for that reason he shouldn’t be any where near a quins match, at least until his generation is well past retirement. The reffing rule is clear for internationals so why is club rugby different? I really hope saints lodge a proper complaint / insist on a review. RFU will circle the wagons obvs but it might at least stop Dickson officiating Quins in a semi or final (which based on yesterday, would be apparently fine by the RFU).

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Matthew
OK, if we accept for the sake of argument that Care is making a tackle. Where are the arms? Where's the wrap?
Additionally if there's no ruck, who's the player who was in the position to have formed one? That'd be James Ramm, who Care pushed out of the way first.

Sorry, but the officiating team had a shocker there, regardless of any questions about bias. And if Mitchell had been able to clean ball as he otherwise would, that was a pretty certain try in the corner for Ludlam.

I think it was the 9 played the ball and Danny grabbed the ball and then placed it behind him, so played the ball not the man. If the 9 had the ball he comes into play so the only illegal thing was the push.

QUIN KONG

Looking at these boards, as we all do, it’s fairly clear that Dickson gets a pretty bad press from everywhere apart from West London whether he be officiating in the Premiership, in Europe or at International level. Selecting him for yesterday’s game was always going to be a potential minefield which was widely commented upon before the game was played. Saints did not have a great day at the office but the Officials had a nightmare for which they will not be held accountable other than a ‘quiet word’ at worst. Yesterday was a high profile game due to the current Premiership table allied to the fact that Quins had transferred the game to Twickenham. There are better referees available, Pearce, Carley and Cox to name but three none of which are ex-Harlequins players as far as I am aware. Would Saints have won with a different referee, maybe not, but the subsequent furore would have been avoided had the RFU not made such a non-sensical selection in the first instance - that is the real issue, that is why we have ‘neutral’ officials in European and International competition. Obviously it is rocket science after all !

I am not sure the officials had a nightmare. They awarded two Saints tries that were questionable but would possibly be given more times than not.

There were a couple of possible penalty tries but the general way this is decided is if there is any cover they are not given.

There was one questionable try not allowed that was down to the TMO. Could have gone either way.

There was one really poor decision. It will be interesting to see what TNT make of it in the review show.

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Toga

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Saints had a player who came in from the side, bypassed the ruck entirely and took out a Quins player some distance behind the ruck

Hilariously, the above opinion is on the Quins board as part of a longer ramble as to why Care was perfectly legal.

Unreal.

To be fair, at the game it was hard to see that Care pushed Ramm into Esterhuizen before the main event. From the stands it did look like Ramm took Esterhuizen out.

Seems the take from Paul Hull - Match Officials Representative via TNT is:

Ramm had over run Augustus, so no chance to off load, and that he would have entered from the side to make the ruck had he not been pushed by DC.

As there was no ruck, DC was onside.

KD realising it was possibly not a ruck, took his hand away from pocket to consult TMO.

Pen only for the push as no offload opportunity and no ruck formed so no offside.

Ben Kay and Lawrence Dallaglio both convinced it was yellow so red card.

Apparently Quins coaches were expecting red too.

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raedarius

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Toga

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Saints had a player who came in from the side, bypassed the ruck entirely and took out a Quins player some distance behind the ruck

Hilariously, the above opinion is on the Quins board as part of a longer ramble as to why Care was perfectly legal.

Unreal.

To be fair, at the game it was hard to see that Care pushed Ramm into Esterhuizen before the main event. From the stands it did look like Ramm took Esterhuizen out.

Toga = Marsile

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Quinten Poulsen

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raedarius

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Toga

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Saints had a player who came in from the side, bypassed the ruck entirely and took out a Quins player some distance behind the ruck

Hilariously, the above opinion is on the Quins board as part of a longer ramble as to why Care was perfectly legal.

Unreal.

To be fair, at the game it was hard to see that Care pushed Ramm into Esterhuizen before the main event. From the stands it did look like Ramm took Esterhuizen out.

Toga = Marsile

On our board, you'd get an 'informative' for that...

As ever Ajack, I bow to your superior insight in all things…….

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PelerinStJames
Seems the take from Paul Hull - Match Officials Representative via TNT is:
Ramm had over run Augustus, so no chance to off load, and that he would have entered from the side to make the ruck had he not been pushed by DC.

As there was no ruck, DC was onside.

KD realising it was possibly not a ruck, took his hand away from pocket to consult TMO.

Pen only for the push as no offload opportunity and no ruck formed so no offside.


Ben Kay and Lawrence Dallaglio both convinced it was yellow so red card.

Apparently Quins coaches were expecting red too.

So the body that makes the terrible decision to appoint Dickson makes no comment on that decision and tries to justify Dickson's mistakes.
Marking your own homework.

The first of Paul Hull's points (that Ramm had overrun) is demonstrably false. Did Paul Hull bother to watch the incident before coming up with that statement?

Wagons circled! Which is worrying, because there are faults here and the RFU don't seem to be receptive to accepting any of it.

Watching the ITV highlights and was looking forward to Flatman’s take on it all as he is often the voice of reason. Nothing mentioned at all in the aftermath of our game highlights. Is ITV going to sweep it all under the rug or will there be some comment later in the programme?
I love this game and this refusal by the powers-that-be to front up when things go wrong is seriously disillusioning. The game is done, we lost and that won’t change, but let’s at least acknowledge the issues in the match so we can sort it out for the future.

Edit: Flatman just addressed it and put DC on the spot so continued faith in him and his viewpoint.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:21:00:51 by Saint BB.

Quote:

Quin Kong

I think it was the 9 played the ball and Danny grabbed the ball and then placed it behind him, so played the ball not the man. If the 9 had the ball he comes into play so the only illegal thing was the push.

But Mitchell had not picked the ball up, he had his hands on the ball (if that) so Care can’t do that. And even if Mitchell had, this would surely be a no arms tackle?

Paul Hill statement: “Ramm overran potential ruck, running an offload line. If a ruck had been formed, he’d have entered from the side.”

That’s just not true!! Ramm stopped and could have made the ruck in an onside position but was pushed out the way by Care. Paul Hull is talking utter bull to defend Karl Dickson, they are looking for a defence by distorting the facts. It is absolute farcical.

[www.planetrugby.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:20:54:32 by northampton_lad.

Hull's statement is dreadful, though he did take on the mountainous task of manipulating the appearance of a deeply concerning incident of misconduct (IMO). Even if you can get yourself comfortable with Danny diving over the top (which I can't), surely the push, which came in as Ramm was behind the ball and in a position to receive an offload, was equally worthy of a yellow card given the line break?

There as much debate of Dickson's suitability for the game given his obvious conflict of interest. Other referees might have spent brief spells with premiership team academies or have supported a club growing up, but I do think those minor conflicts can be overcome with professionalism. It is hugely unfair and inappropriate to ask Dickson to impartially referee a club that he spent 8 years of his professional rugby career at. He would've played and trained with Care and others for many of those years and built deep, emotional connections. The moment on the replay is crystal clear. He reaches for his pocket, looks down at Care and immediately aborts. He should never have been in that position and it would be dreadful for the game if he's in that position in the future.

Would Saints have gone on to win against 14? Difficult to say, but an extra losing bonus point would've been highly likely and perhaps more importantly - the game we all love would've avoided a serious and disheartening refereeing scandal.

Quote:

northampton_lad
Paul Hill statement: “Ramm overran potential ruck, running an offload line. If a ruck had been formed, he’d have entered from the side.”
That’s just not true!! Ramm stopped and could have made the ruck in an onside position but was pushed out the way by Care. Paul Hull is talking utter bull to defend Karl Dickson, they are looking for a defence by distorting the facts. It is absolute farcical.

[www.planetrugby.com]

The description of where Ramm was and what he was capable of doing from his position when Care shoves him is laughable. And since when has diving off your feet like Care did become legal?





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:22:04:30 by Toga.

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Toga

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northampton_lad
Paul Hill statement: “Ramm overran potential ruck, running an offload line. If a ruck had been formed, he’d have entered from the side.”
That’s just not true!! Ramm stopped and could have made the ruck in an onside position but was pushed out the way by Care. Paul Hull is talking utter bull to defend Karl Dickson, they are looking for a defence by distorting the facts. It is absolute farcical.

[www.planetrugby.com]

The description of where Ramm was and what he was capable of doing from his position when Care shoves him is laughable. And since when has diving off your feet like Care did become legal?

Apologies Toga - comment misinterpreted.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:22:25:39 by northampton_lad.

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northampton_lad

Quote:

Toga

Quote:

northampton_lad
Paul Hill statement: “Ramm overran potential ruck, running an offload line. If a ruck had been formed, he’d have entered from the side.”
That’s just not true!! Ramm stopped and could have made the ruck in an onside position but was pushed out the way by Care. Paul Hull is talking utter bull to defend Karl Dickson, they are looking for a defence by distorting the facts. It is absolute farcical.

[www.planetrugby.com]

The description of where Ramm was and what he was capable of doing from his position when Care shoves him is laughable. And since when has diving off your feet like Care did become legal?

I don’t find it “laughable”, as no joke was intended. You don’t know what was capable of happening just as much as I do. The fact is Care made illegal contact and based on the position on the pitch and context of the game, it would seem most people believe it to be cynical. Based on Care’s smirk when he came off, there’s clearly some joke in here that I’ve missed?

Dickson found an excuse not to red the player and now the RFU are finding excuses to back him. Pretty poor look in my opinion.

I was referring to the opinion of Paul Hill.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:22:25:00 by Toga.

Dallaglio & Ben Kay views on it

[twitter.com]

The quotes I saw on TNT in Rugby review all started with Karl’s thought process and not his actual opinion?

Ramm was in a perfect position for the offload, the only thing stopping it was that Juano couldn't free his arm to deliver it. Ive seen some comments mostly from quins fans giving all sorts of whataboutery on this and for me its two pieces of cynical play from Care, yes Ramm was in his way so that he couldn't effect a tackle but you can't push someone off the ball you have to find a way round or wait for ramp to receive the ball, a modicum of sympathy if Ramm was shielding illegally but he wasn't. and then the 2nd was the the interference with Mitchell. Given the where Saints were & Quins scrambling it was a cynical killing of the ball/play and warranted a yellow card. One or the other or indeed both offences warranted it. The defence of the decision is quashed by Care's reaction he knew he'd got away with it and deserved a yellow.

Spot on Walks