Saints v Bath 05th January 2025 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:10:07:25:15 by Saint Ted.

Guna be a tight game i feel. Interesting to see how bath cope if they get an early injury in the backs. Bayliss is a fine athlete but feel a fresh sleightholme would burn him given the chance . I worry about there replacement props against ours . The front row depth bath have is unreal. Bailey at full back gives them an extra kick option but feel he is less dangerous than de glanville. If wet we need to rain high balls on cockanasiga and chase hard. He can be exposed. It makes sense bringing ramm in over Sleights as its guna be a wet one.

Season defining seems to get said almost every week but this does feel different. We are at home coming off a big win and playing probably the best team in England at the minute. We are currently 19 points behind them if that becomes 23 or 24 it looks a huge gap.

This really does feel like both as individuals and as a club a message needs to be sent out and our big name players really need to step up.

Can our tight five get close to parity at scrum, lineout and maul time and provide enough front foot ball, especially when the benches get unloaded?

Can our backrow match theirs albeit with Hill missing? Can Pollock make a bigger impact off the bench than Underhill?

If Mitchell and Smith are the future for England or even the Lions then they need to control games better than the likes of Spencer and Russell, can the prove they can do that?

Can the likes of Freeman and Slieghtholme (from the bench) provide more pace and power than Cockanasigna and Muir both of whom seem above their counterparts in the England pecking order.

Can Dingwall prove he can offer more than Lawrence in midfield and help his international standing?

This really does feel like a big test of both the side and the players as individuals as to where they really are at the minute.

Bath fan in peace - weather looking cold and wet which may be the reason for our bench selection.

As always looking forward to our annual trip to the Gardens. I would say Pollock’s job is to probably to match the power of Coetzee rather than Underhill . Good luck all and see you on Sunday.

Bath effectively out of Europe so they have gone strong to keep Premiership momentum and who can blame them. I would worry about their sheer physicality - sixteenth man needed big time and I don’t mean the slightly flaky referee.

Quote:

ajack
Season defining seems to get said almost every week but this does feel different. We are at home coming off a big win and playing probably the best team in England at the minute. We are currently 19 points behind them if that becomes 23 or 24 it looks a huge gap.
This really does feel like both as individuals and as a club a message needs to be sent out and our big name players really need to step up.

Can our tight five get close to parity at scrum, lineout and maul time and provide enough front foot ball, especially when the benches get unloaded?

Can our backrow match theirs albeit with Hill missing? Can Pollock make a bigger impact off the bench than Underhill?

If Mitchell and Smith are the future for England or even the Lions then they need to control games better than the likes of Spencer and Russell, can the prove they can do that?

Can the likes of Freeman and Slieghtholme (from the bench) provide more pace and power than Cockanasigna and Muir both of whom seem above their counterparts in the England pecking order.

Can Dingwall prove he can offer more than Lawrence in midfield and help his international standing?

This really does feel like a big test of both the side and the players as individuals as to where they really are at the minute.

Agreed. It's not season over if we lose, but it does feel like a very important match individually and collectively. I worry a bit about our tight five and the tight five replacement options, but think that if we can get enough decent ball our backs are the more dangerous, collectively. Bath have opted for a 7-1 bench split, so could be left exposed if they have an injury in the backs.

If we turn up and the crowd gets behind the team I back us for a narrow win.

What a start!!!

Pretty impressive half from us there.

Cheap shot from Lawrence results in Hendy being removed from the field unable to continue, time players doing this were given a yellow. Total disgrace only a penalty and not even warned.

Sometimes a bit of old fashioned enforcement is justified. It was a cynical calculated cheap shot, as for his grinning afterwards. “Fiat Justitia”

That was definitely a late and cheap shot. Of course in these gentler times we cannot administer a friendly shoeing to Lawrence to balance the ledger, if you will. But still, the hits have to be just a wee bit harder....

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JohnI
Cheap shot from Lawrence results in Hendy being removed from the field unable to continue, time players doing this were given a yellow. Total disgrace only a penalty and not even warned.

Totally agree. And he now might score a winning try for them.

Nervy

Lawrence again, call it waist it was A Cheat!

I'm biased, but the dummy line by their 23 was far more dangerous than what Mitchell has just been carded for.

Well done saints

Phew!!
What a match!!!
Thank goodness for Fin!
See you in Paris, Saints.

Why do I put myself through this 🤢🥴😂😂

That’ll do! COYS.

We done Saints - great character. Woodthorpe was shocking.

Cripe, I am out of breath. Good thing I know a number of good cardiologists because this is bad for the heart....

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JohnI
Lawrence again, call it waist it was A Cheat!

100%, should have gone earlier for dog shot of Hendy and then totally milked that.

But a good win, now just keep it going

Laurence and Woodthorpe both taking Rugby to the depths.

I will never understand how Alex Mitchell was carded but Lawrence wasn't. I don't think it is just Bath but how many times do we see attackers flying off their feet over the top of the ruck.

Isnt a support runner behind the ball usually.?

I was shouting fir crossing before the circus of the review took place.

Agree titotally Sternie

My estimation of Lawrence took a severe nose dive today. Smiling after he hurts Henry.
Plonker.

Even some of the Bath fans are saying it was a cheap shot by Lawrence on their forum, the smirk made it worse.

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Buzzer
My estimation of Lawrence took a severe nose dive today. Smiling after he hurts Henry.
Plonker.

And smiling after Alex got carded.

I did hear Fraser questioning the ref about why Lawrence didn't have to go for an HIA after his Bafta performance (it wasn't Oscar worthy)

We picked up a worrying crop of injuries. Hopefully they will turn out to be (relatively) minor.

Sorry smellcheck changed Hendy!
Lawrence got his just desserts.

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Buzzer
Sorry smellcheck changed Hendy!
Lawrence got his just desserts.

Not yet he hasn’t, could he get cited for the push on Hendy?

Though I wasn’t pleased with Lawrences late tackle on Hendy I do think it’s the kind of thing that happens ten times in a game, no big deal. I just hope Hendys shoulder mends well and fast.

But the sh*thousery on show as he tried to milk/buy that penalty was over a line for me. I’m just pleased it didn’t win the game for him/them.

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Angus67

Quote:

Buzzer
Sorry smellcheck changed Hendy!
Lawrence got his just desserts.

Not yet he hasn’t, could he get cited for the push on Hendy?

I think it has to be considered a potential red card incident and it was probably only worthy of a yellow.

Quote:

higgy365

But the sh*thousery on show as he tried to milk/buy that penalty was over a line for me. I’m just pleased it didn’t win the game for him/them.

100%

Quote:

JohnI
Lawrence again, call it waist it was A Cheat!

Oscar T88t of the match award for Lawrence- that was disgraceful

Edited as it has been pointed out that it wasn't even good acting!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:05:18:10:50 by Sans Culottes.

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ramseysaint

Quote:

Buzzer
My estimation of Lawrence took a severe nose dive today. Smiling after he hurts Henry.
Plonker.

And smiling after Alex got carded.

I did hear Fraser questioning the ref about why Lawrence didn't have to go for an HIA after his Bafta performance (it wasn't Oscar worthy)

Fair point re not being worth an Oscar, I'll amend my post :-)

Can he be cited for bringing the game into disrepute?

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Saint Robert

Quote:

Angus67

Quote:

Buzzer
Sorry smellcheck changed Hendy!
Lawrence got his just desserts.

Not yet he hasn’t, could he get cited for the push on Hendy?

I think it has to be considered a potential red card incident and it was probably only worthy of a yellow.

Cheers Saint Robert.

I think that in my day it would have been considered ungentlemanly conduct but that was a long long time ago and I think it is a thing of the past.

He was lucky that there wasn't much time to play following his feigned injury. He thoroughly deserved a bit more of a shoeing in the rucks.

Pretty sure Woodthorpe would have protected him like he appeared to do to Bath for most of the match though.



That result needs to be a statement win and season defining. Hopefully we can take the form into Europe then start to move up the league with a win at Quins.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:05:18:38:51 by St Stokey..

I know it was a cracking game and I’m delighted that Saints won but our afternoon was very much spoilt by drunken idiots ( Saints fans ) who surround our seats. I would not dream of taking my young grandchildren into such a bear pit of aggression, bad language and boorish behaviour. Maybe, just maybe there is a case for making the Barwell End a family stand ?

I would go along with most of the comments about Ollie Lawrence made in this post, really disappointing and unnecessary. However I was a bit disappointed with the booing and whistling from the Saints fans, but worst of all were Bath players, 2/3 of them waving their hands above their heads in an attempt to distract Finn Smith at the final kick of the match. A clear shot of the incident can be seen on interviews etc. that followed the TNT match. I really think this should result in Bath being fined heavily, and punishment for the players.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:06:11:00:22 by John Rickerd.

Was the poor behaviour reported to the stewards?

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St Stokey.
Was the poor behaviour reported to the stewards?

A conversation was had but shoulders were simply shrugged.

There does seem to be a lot of 'crowdsafe' staff. Is this in place of 'employed' staff?

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Connorman

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higgy365

But the sh*thousery on show as he tried to milk/buy that penalty was over a line for me. I’m just pleased it didn’t win the game for him/them.

100%

Same here. When Bath have true honest guys like Tom Dunn playing their socks off (& would have been a deserving MoM for me and winner) they are badly served by that shameful action by Lawrence. You'd like to think Baths front row would sort him out, but maybe it's too long since I played.

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John Rickerd
I would go along with most of the comments about Ollie Robinson made in this post, really disappointing and unnecessary.

Olly Robinson is a Cardiff player - if he was there, he would have been a spectator at most.😀

PG

Ollie Lawrence has issued an apology on X

‘Ps - Apologies if my actions today offended anyone. On review, I understand the frustration voiced! I’ll be better 🫶🏾’

[x.com]

NGSB,

I hope you will email the Stadium Manager.

Well once you could see the game, it was a brilliant watch!

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tigersimon
Ollie Lawrence has issued an apology on X
‘Ps - Apologies if my actions today offended anyone. On review, I understand the frustration voiced! I’ll be better 🫶🏾’

[x.com]

So the player admits it... refereeing team, any follow up?

Barberry also tried to milk head contact at a breakdown. Will need to rewatch as curious to know how probably a try was if Lawrence didn’t give up to get the penalty and kept going towards the line.

The crowd showing their distaste was justified in this case. Generally a well informed, respectful crowd. That decision and Lawrence took the mick.

During the game you have to give Lawrence the benefit of the doubt

But seeing it on TV and his comments on X

What an absolute w@#$%&

Should get a ban for the rest of the season

Huge huge heart from the Saints. Well done lads! That’s the Saints that we know they can be.

The injuries to both teams showed what a hugely committed and physical game that was.

All we can do from 8th is keep winning and hoping other results go our way. 5 points keeps our outside chances of the playoffs alive. Even if we don’t make the playoffs that felt an important statement of intent rather than some of the half-hearted stuff we have dished up at times this season.

I hope those injuries don’t haunt us regarding player availability for Europe. Particularly in the second row.

Given we won, I’m not being bitter when I say after the cheating, cheap and dangerous shots by Bath players they have really gone down in my estimation. So I’ll be supporting the opposition against Bath going forward.

Maybe Mitchell shouldn't tackle people with his face and then he wouldn't get yellow carded? Maybe fans should consider how they would react to getting their head hit by someone else's head?

Congrats on your win, well deserved, but catch yerselves on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:05:23:10:58 by hasta.

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hasta
Maybe fans should consider how they would react to getting their head hit by someone else's head?

We'd all get up laughing about it, right?

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hasta
Maybe Mitchell shouldn't tackle people with his face and then he wouldn't get yellow carded? Maybe fans should consider how they would react to getting their head hit by someone else's head?
Congrats on your win, well deserved, but catch yerselves on.

Any comment on the late cheap shot on Hendy or the significantly worse headshots on Dingwall and Hutchinson? I felt at the time that Mitchell deserved a yellow if he caught Lawrence's head/nose but it seemed to be the most innocuous of the three...

So... do you not think Mitchell hit him in the head with his face?

The late shot on Hendy was identical to Hendy's late shot on Finn two mins earlier, which also wasn't a penalty. Why did Dingwall hit Coetzee? Coetzee was looking to take the ball, no idea what you're on about there. What Hutchinson shot? Wasn't flagged at all.

If you're all getting het up about a supposed wink as the height of bad sportsmanship, I'm looking forward to your comments about Henry Pollock for the next few years.

The key stats for why we won IMHO were we made 13 dominant tackles to 7 for Bath and 331 post contact metres to 265. In other words we won the collisions.

In the Telegraph article thread (From champions to eighth) showing we were down across all 13 stats the reporter showed this season, I made the point that a lot of our attacking prowess is predicated on winning the collision battle and the collision stats saw our greatest drop off this season compared to last.

Today we wanted it and it showed in how the players put their bodies on the line to win the collisions.

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hasta
The late shot on Hendy was identical to Hendy's late shot on Finn two mins earlier, which also wasn't a penalty. Why did Dingwall hit Coetzee? Coetzee was looking to take the ball, no idea what you're on about there. What Hutchinson shot? Wasn't flagged at all.
If you're all getting het up about a supposed wink as the height of bad sportsmanship, I'm looking forward to your comments about Henry Pollock for the next few years.

The play acting is indefensible - this is not football, the cheapshot shoulder charge was 2 seconds later than Hendy's tackle on your Finn (who was in the act of tackling whilst Finn still had the ball) and Dingwall didn't hit Coetzee, Dingwall was hit, off the ball, by Coetzee, who was running interference in front of the ball carrier. And, as far as I'm aware, HP has done nothing wrong and is therefore nothing to do with this conversation and another example of a Bath cheapshot - play the ball, not the man.

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Stillgrinning

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hasta
The late shot on Hendy was identical to Hendy's late shot on Finn two mins earlier, which also wasn't a penalty. Why did Dingwall hit Coetzee? Coetzee was looking to take the ball, no idea what you're on about there. What Hutchinson shot? Wasn't flagged at all.
If you're all getting het up about a supposed wink as the height of bad sportsmanship, I'm looking forward to your comments about Henry Pollock for the next few years.

The play acting is indefensible - this is not football, the cheapshot shoulder charge was 2 seconds later than Hendy's tackle on your Finn (who was in the act of tackling whilst Finn still had the ball) and Dingwall didn't hit Coetzee, Dingwall was hit, off the ball, by Coetzee, who was running interference in front of the ball carrier. And, as far as I'm aware, HP has done nothing wrong and is therefore nothing to do with this conversation and another example of a Bath cheapshot - play the ball, not the man.

I would not try and argue with Hasta, he clearly knows nothing about the game.

I do agree with you, Hendy already committed to tackling Russel before he shipped the ball. Mitch pulled out of the tackle and the Bath player that hit Dingwall was clearly in front of the ball interfering with the defence.

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hasta
The late shot on Hendy was identical to Hendy's late shot on Finn two mins earlier, which also wasn't a penalty.

Except Hendy wrapped his arms and Lawrence didn't.

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tigersimon
NGSB,
I hope you will email the Stadium Manager.

The problem is that it’s nothing that you wouldn’t see, feel or hear at any football match. It’s not a case of being threatened or intimidated more a case that middle aged men who should know better are getting tanked up and making the ‘experience ‘ an unpleasant one for those of us who don’t need four or five pints to watch a game of rugby. I go to Old Trafford a couple of times a season ( friend has a couple of season tickets ) and the experience is the same and that from a sport that does not allow alcohol in sight of the pitch. I’m partial to a beer myself, so I’m not a teetotal snowflake but much as I love watching ‘my club’ as I have done since the sixties, I think that maybe the time has come to retire to the sofa - clearly I’m in a minority but the game has changed and not, from a purely personal perspective, for the better.

Hasta la vista Hasta.

From a neutral perspective that was an incredible game and it seems somewhat of a shame that a few incidents are taking so much focus from that.

Hendy appeared to have already injured himself in making the legal "committed" tackle on Russell. In contrast Lawrence's tackle was both late and not legal but that's rarely more than a penalty unless there's head contact.
Lawrence did seem fortunate that a similar shoulder/no-arms tackle minutes later was ignored, another potential penalty and possibly a card at that point?

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NGSB

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tigersimon
NGSB,
I hope you will email the Stadium Manager.

The problem is that it’s nothing that you wouldn’t see, feel or hear at any football match. It’s not a case of being threatened or intimidated more a case that middle aged men who should know better are getting tanked up and making the ‘experience ‘ an unpleasant one for those of us who don’t need four or five pints to watch a game of rugby. I go to Old Trafford a couple of times a season ( friend has a couple of season tickets ) and the experience is the same and that from a sport that does not allow alcohol in sight of the pitch. I’m partial to a beer myself, so I’m not a teetotal snowflake but much as I love watching ‘my club’ as I have done since the sixties, I think that maybe the time has come to retire to the sofa - clearly I’m in a minority but the game has changed and not, from a purely personal perspective, for the better.

Just because it’s ‘acceptable’ at Old Trafford and at Football Grounds, doesn’t make it right at Rugby!

Rugby needs to realise that not everything Football does is better!

I appreciate a lot of Clubs revenues are from Beer Sales/Franchises with Catering businesses but that shouldn’t stop a family atmosphere at games.

I might be old school but feel an email to the club that your future attendance and future attendees (Grandchildren) is being influenced by this behaviour!

Lawrence's tackle on Hendy was legal (his right arm was wrapping and it wasn't high). It was arguably late, but so was Hendy on Finn and that comes down to ref interpretation.

Coetzee was in a legal position to receive the ball, looking to take an offload and him and Dingwall ran into each other. Rugby incident.

What is not interpretation is that Mitchell hit Lawrence in the head with his head and you're arguing about how someone best responds to being hit in the head.

Congrats on your win, you deserved it, your control after the Finn pen and your handling in general were excellent.

One of the underlying values of Rugby Sportsmanship together with respect.

Sportsmanship and Respect
Rugby values fair play and sportsmanship. Players are expected to compete fiercely, but also to do so with integrity and respect for their opponents. This sport also emphasizes respect for the game, opponents, teammates, coaches, the public, and referees.

In my opinion Lawrence crossed the boundaries with his fake play acting to get Mutchell yellow carded and win a penalty. Clearly bourne out by his actions immediately following.

It really doesnt surprise me that a Bath supporter just doesnt get why people, not just Saints supporters, are unhappy with his actions.

Such a shame that a brilliant game, in front of a sell-out loud Gardens that saw the youngest team in the competition outplay (for enough of the match) a Bath team built with a lot of money, some wonderful players and excellent coaching, is being overshadowed by a couple of moments that to be honest, the players forgot about a minute afterwards.

PS Hasta - I politely suggest you leave it now. You made your points well.

If you think he's fake play acting, do you... not think that Mitchell hit him in the head with his head? Because he definitely did. I'm not saying he did it on purpose. But he definitely hit him in the head with his head and that's a yellow card.

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Connorman
PS Hasta - I politely suggest you leave it now. You made your points well.

Fair.

A deal of the credit for this win must go down to Lee Radford. Our defence was superb and the tackling ruthless.

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hasta
The late shot on Hendy was identical to Hendy's late shot on Finn two mins earlier, which also wasn't a penalty. Why did Dingwall hit Coetzee? Coetzee was looking to take the ball, no idea what you're on about there. What Hutchinson shot? Wasn't flagged at all.
If you're all getting het up about a supposed wink as the height of bad sportsmanship, I'm looking forward to your comments about Henry Pollock for the next few years.

My fault for commenting before watching the game back! The Hutchinson tackle appeared to be direct head contact but was shoulder to shoulder - pen only was right. My reading of the other incident was influenced by the TMO referral. In hindsight the ref was fine to overrule him.

The yellow for Mitchell was right because there was no further mitigation to reduce it from a yellow card. His theatrics were embarrassing, however, and he potentially butchered a try scoring opportunity by going down so easily.

I completely disagree with you equating Hendy's tackle (nothing given, commentators said it was play on and the Bath fans in front of me said the timing was fine...) on Russell with the late hit by Lawrence. The latter was correctly given as a penalty but I think a yellow was justified because he deliberately targeted an outstanding injury. Had GH not had treatment on that shoulder (or had it been another player), he wouldn't have issued the late/no arms tackle.

I just wanted to comment on Fin remaining cool under pressure and nailing that late kick for the match, and likely the season. That is never easy, especially for a younger player and after playing a full 80. We are fortunate we have him.

A couple of Fin's statements, quoted in today's Telegraph:

“I was genuinely thinking this had better go over because I had felt I had let the boys down with the prior two,” Smith said. “I wasn’t super confident over it but I have kicked hundreds of thousands of balls in the last 5-10 years so I went back to that. I tried to picture myself at the local rugby club kicking a ball and really relax, to block out everything and thank God it went over.

“I have had kicks at Croke Park but I would put that right up there with the biggest kicks in my career. It was not the most difficult kick ever but I felt that game was really a make or break one for our season. If we had lost that one then we would be really out of the hunt. Luckily it went over and we’re still in the mix. That was not my best game but I felt I took a step forward and as a team we took a massive step forward.”




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:06:14:34:46 by Saint Gordo.

Bath fan in peace; just wanting to put my tuppence worth in.
Lawrence on Hendy seems to be one of those where either a penalty, or penalty and yellow are both fair calls. IMO it was late, and without arms. That Hendy was previously injured isn't illegal as far as I know - but it does make it a very unpleasant challenge to make - and deserves an apology.

Mitchell on Lawrence seems to be one where a yellow is technically correct, in a "harsh but fair" manner, and I'd have preferred it to be a penalty. My read is that Mitchell realised that he couldn't put a legal tackle in, and tried to bail; but was too committed at that time. So technically, the attempted tackle meets the yellow threshold, but it's also an example of behaviour we actively want to encourage (bailing out if you can't do it legally), so I'd have like that to mitigate it down. I don't see any play acting like this, as there's no denying that Lawrence had just received a probably painful clout to the face - which can take a second or two to fully appreciate. I further think (and this is pure opinion) that a head contact that results in the player having to stop play as they work out if they're badly hurt or not, should result in an HIA. That's not the laws as they stand, but it's what I would like to see.

Coetzee and Dingwall was a rugby incident. Coetzee was onside, and running to the side and slightly behind the ball carrier in perfect position for an offload. He only gets ahead of the ball carrier for approximately 1/10 of a second, due to a tackle on the ball carrier. At no point was he running an obstruction line, equally, Dingwall wasn't attempting a tackle on him. The only time he is between any Saint player and the ball carrier is after the tackle has been started, and after he's been knocked unconscious.
Absolutely nothing in it. Stop the match on the principle of player safety, restart with a scrum to the team in possession.


The match as a whole was really entertaining, with a whole bunch of "what if"s for both sides. I wish you well for the rest of the season, and hope to see you back towards the sharp end of the table when it matters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:06:14:45:18 by Which Tyler.

Quote:

Awaywin
Barberry also tried to milk head contact at a breakdown. Will need to rewatch as curious to know how probably a try was if Lawrence didn’t give up to get the penalty and kept going towards the line.

wasn't the resultant penalty approx 47 metres from try line?

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Connorman
Such a shame that a brilliant game, in front of a sell-out loud Gardens that saw the youngest team in the competition outplay (for enough of the match) a Bath team built with a lot of money, some wonderful players and excellent coaching, is being overshadowed by a couple of moments that to be honest, the players forgot about a minute afterwards.

it's only being overshadowed in hindsight and only on social medias like this one. If you can't see beyond social media and enjoy things for what they are, life must be very challenging

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Hygge

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Connorman
Such a shame that a brilliant game, in front of a sell-out loud Gardens that saw the youngest team in the competition outplay (for enough of the match) a Bath team built with a lot of money, some wonderful players and excellent coaching, is being overshadowed by a couple of moments that to be honest, the players forgot about a minute afterwards.

it's only being overshadowed in hindsight and only on social medias like this one. If you can't see beyond social media and enjoy things for what they are, life must be very challenging

Adds a little extra narrative should both sides make the play offs/ final though!

The only one of the incidents that really has any further discussion at this point having watched all the replays was the Hendy one and really just for a lack of arms. YEs he managed to gently place a hand arround his waist but the intent was to hit with the full force of the shoulder. But it didnt effect the result, just if Hendy will get to show more of what he can do in Europe and potentially be in the running for the six nations where a lack of Furbank might be an issue.

It was totally unneeded though.

That was an incredible game and a credit to both Clubs.

Considering Bath were fully loaded whilst Saints had some injuries, that during the match Bath's injuries were largely immaterial whereas Saints lost their Fullback and then two Locks at the same time and survived the late yellow that really is huge credit to the tenacity of the players.

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Hygge

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Connorman
Such a shame that a brilliant game, in front of a sell-out loud Gardens that saw the youngest team in the competition outplay (for enough of the match) a Bath team built with a lot of money, some wonderful players and excellent coaching, is being overshadowed by a couple of moments that to be honest, the players forgot about a minute afterwards.

it's only being overshadowed in hindsight and only on social medias like this one. If you can't see beyond social media and enjoy things for what they are, life must be very challenging

🤣🤣 hilarious comment. Hopefully tongue in cheek.

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Which Tyler
Bath fan in peace; just wanting to put my tuppence worth in.
Lawrence on Hendy seems to be one of those where either a penalty, or penalty and yellow are both fair calls. IMO it was late, and without arms. That Hendy was previously injured isn't illegal as far as I know - but it does make it a very unpleasant challenge to make - and deserves an apology.

Mitchell on Lawrence seems to be one where a yellow is technically correct, in a "harsh but fair" manner, and I'd have preferred it to be a penalty. My read is that Mitchell realised that he couldn't put a legal tackle in, and tried to bail; but was too committed at that time. So technically, the attempted tackle meets the yellow threshold, but it's also an example of behaviour we actively want to encourage (bailing out if you can't do it legally), so I'd have like that to mitigate it down. I don't see any play acting like this, as there's no denying that Lawrence had just received a probably painful clout to the face - which can take a second or two to fully appreciate. I further think (and this is pure opinion) that a head contact that results in the player having to stop play as they work out if they're badly hurt or not, should result in an HIA. That's not the laws as they stand, but it's what I would like to see.

Coetzee and Dingwall was a rugby incident. Coetzee was onside, and running to the side and slightly behind the ball carrier in perfect position for an offload. He only gets ahead of the ball carrier for approximately 1/10 of a second, due to a tackle on the ball carrier. At no point was he running an obstruction line, equally, Dingwall wasn't attempting a tackle on him. The only time he is between any Saint player and the ball carrier is after the tackle has been started, and after he's been knocked unconscious.
Absolutely nothing in it. Stop the match on the principle of player safety, restart with a scrum to the team in possession.


The match as a whole was really entertaining, with a whole bunch of "what if"s for both sides. I wish you well for the rest of the season, and hope to see you back towards the sharp end of the table when it matters.

Oh stop it with your sensible and balanced posts 😀

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SaintsDuncan
Oh stop it with your sensible and balanced posts 😀

Sorry, I do t know what came over me.

You're all a bunch of blind something-or-others who only used one, malfunctioning eye the whole time.
No Bath player did anything wrong and no Saints player did anything right, you only won because of the ref.


Better?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:06:17:31:39 by Which Tyler.

Thank you, I feel so much better now 😀

Still thinking about Lawrence’s grinning during the game after the two incidents. We’ve all seen gazillions of examples of the same during whatever Old Fartingtonians 4th XV we’ve all played, but there was something slightly different about the way he handled that. Only OL will ever know the extent to which he bought the penalty. Gawd knows we’ve all simulated outrage when our SH pass “accidentally” bumps into the fatboy and he gets the penalty, but to pretend to be more hurt than you are is just…beyond the pale. Why? No idea. But it is, isn’t it? Again, only OL will ever know if he was genuinely stunned by the blow. I

Quote:

NGSB
I know it was a cracking game and I’m delighted that Saints won but our afternoon was very much spoilt by drunken idiots ( Saints fans ) who surround our seats. I would not dream of taking my young grandchildren into such a bear pit of aggression, bad language and boorish behaviour. Maybe, just maybe there is a case for making the Barwell End a family stand ?

I have stood in terrace D for 10 years or so and except a few incidents mainly with Tigers fans, we have had problems in the last few weeks with visiting fans from Harlequins and Bath who are invariably drunk, the age mainly being 20-30 yr olds, I am, note the handle, a converted football fan and saw first hand a lot of pretty scary violence in the 70's and 80's at Upton Park, what appealed to me with rugby, was mixing home and away with opposing supporters and having a craic, however I am seeing a difference this year particularly and it is tilting towards a football attitude.
We were supporting the Saints loudly and instead of the bath fans supporting their team, there was constant P155 taking of us and snide comments about the Saints players, I confronted them and told them to support their team, but it carried on, I called a steward and he had a word, but it carried on in the second half in a much more covert way, I still have a bit of east end football fan about me and I'm afraid one day someone will get a slap from me, then it will be curtains, so sadly I am thinking of changing my tickets to a seat next year.
Has anybody else noticed this shift in behaviour?

Hammersaint, I have followed Rugby for about 45 years and my late Dad and I went to most grounds over the years and enjoyed the Craic with home supporters. Apart from 3 incidents I can recall including one being seated (at the Gardens) they were enjoyable visits! We also had several alcohol fuelled issues with Corporates who sat behind our ST seats at Tigers!
I read most of the teams forums across SportsNetwork and most weeks recently unfortunately there seems to be occurrences similar to yours & NGSB.

I am not sure if it’s a society issue, change in demographic of the supporters or an alcohol fuelled issue but the Respect between opposition fans is dying and ultimately we will see away sections and the Craic will die!

The clubs need to know about these issues and also educate Rugby Values and these also need to be shown on the Pitch (Bath Players!).

The stewards need to deal with drunks and any foul language instead of the reports I have read of doing nothing!

View from the Telegraph

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

He has made a reputation for alll the wrong reasons.

It takes a career to get a good name but one incident to get a bad one.

Welll done the Telegraph and btw isnt Nigel Owens the absolute best.

Quote:

tigersimon
Hammersaint, I have followed Rugby for about 45 years and my late Dad and I went to most grounds over the years and enjoyed the Craic with home supporters. Apart from 3 incidents I can recall including one being seated (at the Gardens) they were enjoyable visits! We also had several alcohol fuelled issues with Corporates who sat behind our ST seats at Tigers!
I read most of the teams forums across SportsNetwork and most weeks recently unfortunately there seems to be occurrences similar to yours & NGSB.

I am not sure if it’s a society issue, change in demographic of the supporters or an alcohol fuelled issue but the Respect between opposition fans is dying and ultimately we will see away sections and the Craic will die!

The clubs need to know about these issues and also educate Rugby Values and these also need to be shown on the Pitch (Bath Players!).

The stewards need to deal with drunks and any foul language instead of the reports I have read of doing nothing!

On the contrary, I still believe the respect between home and away supporters still exists, Having watched all my clubs home games for donkey's years and the majority of away games I find boorish behaviour between "rival" fans quite rare. However I am concerned by the amount of anti social obnoxious behaviour that is becoming commonplace at every Premiership ground. It's a common complaint on every forum but the culprits aren't supporters of either club. they are from a growing band of idiots who see a rugby match as an excuse for a boozy day out. They are rarely interested in the game and my heart sinks when they turn up in my row clutching a 2 pinter in both hands, 5 minutes after kick off and unable to locate their seats. Back and forth to loo and bar and as they get more inebriated the lairy behaviour kicks in. Proper fans sometimes self police it by shutting them up, amazingly I have never see a fight break out but you know it's going to happen one day.

Quote:

Francis Allen

Quote:

tigersimon
Hammersaint, I have followed Rugby for about 45 years and my late Dad and I went to most grounds over the years and enjoyed the Craic with home supporters. Apart from 3 incidents I can recall including one being seated (at the Gardens) they were enjoyable visits! We also had several alcohol fuelled issues with Corporates who sat behind our ST seats at Tigers!
I read most of the teams forums across SportsNetwork and most weeks recently unfortunately there seems to be occurrences similar to yours & NGSB.

I am not sure if it’s a society issue, change in demographic of the supporters or an alcohol fuelled issue but the Respect between opposition fans is dying and ultimately we will see away sections and the Craic will die!

The clubs need to know about these issues and also educate Rugby Values and these also need to be shown on the Pitch (Bath Players!).

The stewards need to deal with drunks and any foul language instead of the reports I have read of doing nothing!

On the contrary, I still believe the respect between home and away supporters still exists, Having watched all my clubs home games for donkey's years and the majority of away games I find boorish behaviour between "rival" fans quite rare. However I am concerned by the amount of anti social obnoxious behaviour that is becoming commonplace at every Premiership ground. It's a common complaint on every forum but the culprits aren't supporters of either club. they are from a growing band of idiots who see a rugby match as an excuse for a boozy day out. They are rarely interested in the game and my heart sinks when they turn up in my row clutching a 2 pinter in both hands, 5 minutes after kick off and unable to locate their seats. Back and forth to loo and bar and as they get more inebriated the lairy behaviour kicks in. Proper fans sometimes self police it by shutting them up, amazingly I have never see a fight break out but you know it's going to happen one day.

And for reasons you outline , my wife and I are unlikely to attend Twickenham again. Up down, in out, beer, @#$%&, beer , @#$%& again, more beer…..and that’s just the wife 🤣. Spoilt a very tense afternoon. Whenever we see “ strangers” in our row in the Carlsberg stand we can be pretty sure of a disrupted afternoon’s sport.

I'm glad that Saints doesn't serve the 2 pint jugs. I remember going to Tigers and the others in my group ended up getting smashed simply because the beer was in their hand. Fortunately they're happy drunks!

Its the people that head to the bar 5 minutes before the end of a half and return 5 minutes after the restart that bugs me. I don't mind so much those that wait for a break in play as there can be long queues but it feels like more and more often, people aren't there for the rugby!

I'm struggling to find the precise moment, but there was an instance where Underhill came in to the ruck and appeared to dive over the ruck.

Presumably he only dived over because the defenders mover our of the way.

How would this have been legal? Surely if a defender had been there, Underhill would have been out of control, reckless and off feet. If we're penalising not based upon outcome, how does this not get penalised?

Quote:

St Stokey.
I'm struggling to find the precise moment, but there was an instance where Underhill came in to the ruck and appeared to dive over the ruck.
Presumably he only dived over because the defenders mover our of the way.

How would this have been legal? Surely if a defender had been there, Underhill would have been out of control, reckless and off feet. If we're penalising not based upon outcome, how does this not get penalised?

I think that was in the 2nd half with Pollock moving to the side. I think there have been instances where refs have told defenders that they can't do that as it could force an opponent off their feet and illicit the penalty. In this case, however, Underhill would've definitely been off his feet regardless - and who'd want to be on the receiving end of SU clattering into you at full pelt?!

Quote:

St Stokey.
I'm struggling to find the precise moment, but there was an instance where Underhill came in to the ruck and appeared to dive over the ruck.
Presumably he only dived over because the defenders mover our of the way.

How would this have been legal? Surely if a defender had been there, Underhill would have been out of control, reckless and off feet. If we're penalising not based upon outcome, how does this not get penalised?

That stuck out to me too at the time as dangerous and lucky the Saints player stepped aside. At knee height he really could have done some nasty damage.

It’s a physical game and sometimes teams overstep the line between legitimately hard and dangerous. Bath did it a few times. But Saints players in the past have also been guilty of uncondonable actions such as Dylan and Calum Clark. So on reflection I’ve dismounted from my high horse, whilst still viewing it as poor by those Bath players and not behaviours what we want to see in the game.

Something definitely does need to be done about ruck clears in general - plenty of players from all teams coming in at a million miles an hour with no control and I'm frequently surprised more injuries don't occur.

There is a middle ground where a player approaches on their feet but quick enough to be surprised by the opposition moving, in that case there is a case of buying a penalty. But where they are virtually horizontal that's never going to be legal!

I don't know (and can't be bothered to check) whether the wording of the law has been changed, but it used to say "players arriving at a ruck must endeavour to stay on their feet".

I seem to recall Ben Ryan quoting this during focus on neck rolls, pointing out our was already covered in the laws

Sooner or later there will be a significant spectator 'incident' at a International or Premiership fixture in the UK so don't be too surprised if the 'no alcohol in sight of the pitch' regulation comes into force !

I'd have thought the club owners and RFU would fight against that tooth and nail - no idea what % of matchday turnover is from the bars but I'd wager a decent chunk?

I remember going to the theatre
Albeit some time ago

The bar was open before
During intervals
And after

That might be an option

Having the bars closed whilst the game is being played would be an option but it would require a service/ facilities upgrade.

Currently, in the Carlsberg stand, the chances of going to the toilet then getting a pint during half time without missing any game time are pretty slim!

Since we are telling a few stories: I was in Rome for a Six Nations match quite some years ago, well before the pandemic to be sure. I was surprised beer was sold, and even outside the stadium. I knew the guy who was head of security very slightly from a joint training exercise in our respective army days. So I asked him why beer was sold at Rugby matches and not within (at the time) 1km of a stadium for soccer.

His response was that they observed Rugby people seem to get a bit agitated without beer whilst soccer/football people seem to get agitated, or worse, with beer. He said it tongue in cheek, but the message was clear.

My recollection from a long time ago ( maybe Longers could help ) was that there was very little opportunity to drink at the Gardens before the Sturtridge was built. The few hundred inhabitants of the main stand would probably have the odd hip flask or two, purely medicinal you understand. When I first went to Twickenham - South Africa 1969 on ‘that tour’ - I remember, as a schoolboy, being staggered by the carpet of bottles on the terraces after the game. Once the aforesaid Sturtridge was built, then a trip to the bar after the game was standard practice, maybe hanging around for the legendary Disco’s later in the evening. Times have certainly changed.

Quote:

NGSB
My recollection from a long time ago ( maybe Longers could help ) was that there was very little opportunity to drink at the Gardens before the Sturtridge was built. The few hundred inhabitants of the main stand would probably have the odd hip flask or two, purely medicinal you understand. When I first went to Twickenham - South Africa 1969 on ‘that tour’ - I remember, as a schoolboy, being staggered by the carpet of bottles on the terraces after the game. Once the aforesaid Sturtridge was built, then a trip to the bar after the game was standard practice, maybe hanging around for the legendary Disco’s later in the evening. Times have certainly changed.

You suggesting I'm old? 😁

I cannot recall any source of alcohol at the ground before the Sturtridge. Although I cannot be certain if the players bar under the wooden stand was built before or after the Sturtridge?

That game you saw was the first I was allowed to go to on my own. I went with a Saint to be - Paul Carter.

And as for the discos.............

Discos aren't bad but there's only ever about 7 in the bag.....

The under stand bar was before thre Sturbridge

Quote:

harryw
The under stand bar was before thre Sturbridge

Thanks Harry.

Couldn't for the life of me remember. I do remember that "something" befell Ronn Slinn which involved him getting "built in" or similar!