Saints V Bordeaux - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:16:12:37:40 by Saint Ted.

What’s wrong with Tony I wonder… seems to me that Furbz is off. Maybe because it’s a new injury!

How is Furbank injured? A training accident?

Reports said he was unwell last week?

With the exception of Furbank out to injury, it's a very predictable team - and a really good one. The only one I paused on was the selection of Sleightholme (with no game time) over Ramm.

"not considered for selection" is a wider category than "injured"

Given Tony B and Furbank not considered that's pretty much a given selection.

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SaintsAsh
How is Furbank injured? A training accident?

The speculation as a result of the deafening silence goes on. Perhaps there is a current injury issue that’s affecting the Quins contract signing? 🤔

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saintsfella
What’s wrong with Tony I wonder… seems to me that Furbz is off. Maybe because it’s a new injury!

I would imagine its related to the cut in the mouth that forced him off at the end of the quins game

The longer Furbank is unavailable the more sensible the decision to offer a 1 year contract becomes.

I think Ramm is playing very well, and our best high ball player available. If Bordeaux box kick a lot I can see him coming on. 6:2 means Rory has to step up if Finn goes off, but does give added impetus in last quarter if the forwards are flagging. Delighted for EMM, but feel there is more to come from Cleopas - he's becoming quite a destructive scrummager against tired legs. Interesting that Pollock displaces Callum from 8 - predict some picking from the base with explosive pace.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:09:12:14:11 by undersizedprop2.

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undersizedprop2
Interesting that Pollock displaces Callum from 8 - predict some picking from the base with explosive pace.

Without Kemeny and because of the 2nd row injuries, it leaves Chick as the only other option at 6.

I think Pearson could be pretty good there, but take your point

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Smooothsides

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saintsfella
What’s wrong with Tony I wonder… seems to me that Furbz is off. Maybe because it’s a new injury!

I would imagine its related to the cut in the mouth that forced him off at the end of the quins game

Wouldn’t have imagined that would keep him out

My only concern is the backs cover. Ramm clearly a back 3 player, so I would imagine that Todaro would move in to cover centres and Hutch would cover Fin. Just feels a little makeshift.

Presume that we need the forwards size more so... and there is a lot of it! By the looks of it, Pollock is probably the smallest of the forwards!

I don't believe that Dowse and Vesty are that shortsighted that "not considered for selection" is code for "not here next year". The inclusion of Graham and EMM would suggest that it's not necessarily the case. We need the whole squad if we're going to win anything this year so alienating players this early would seem unnecessarily counterproductive.

Worth remembering that you don't have to be on crutches to be injured. Perhaps Tony has an issue with his teeth that takes more that a week to properly set. Perhaps Furbs isn't in the right headspace with the transfer speculation. If it means they're not 'fit to play', then absolutely "not considered for selection" but doesn't mean that they've got a torn ACL and a shattered shoulder.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:09:12:23:29 by St Stokey..

Disappointed no Tony. If Furbank is genuinely not fit (physically unfit) then the one year offer just seems prudent.

I just don't think we make enough of the fact that over half the match day squad are academy products for what is the biggest match in Europe this weekend and a repeat of last year's final. Plus plenty unavailable that would surely have been in contention. Massive credit due to the club there. Genuinely interested to find out how that compares to UBB

Can’t wait! Yes we can win, but it’ll be tough.

Bordeaux are a very good side but are beatable (like Quins did 2 seasons ago at Bordeaux in Europe and Pau at Bordeaux in the top 14 and they can be inconsistent - won 8 but lost 6 top 14 games). Plus losing Lucu is a big big loss and they are missing 3 of their best backrowers - though Woki is still playing so relative hardship! My sense is they aren’t quite at the same levels they were reaching last season but still capable of reaching those heights. Whilst Saints have improved our pack particularly with JJ to be able to compete physically. At a neutral venue I’d slightly favour us. At Bordeaux they are rightly favourites but we have taken some big scalps on the road - Munster, Bulls, Leinster and Bath.

I wish the injury Gods had been a bit kinder to Saints. There is a bit of leadership/game-management lost in the backfield/midfield with both Furbank and Dingwall out. But the side selected can win but need to be accurate and not allow Bordeaux to dictate play and get their dangerous backs into space.

The Bath game was our first big season-defining game where we stood up looking like champion contenders. This feels like the next big test. Win and we should have home knock out games all the way to the semi final and we are good enough to win them all at home. Lose and it will away from quarters onwards and a tough ask to repeatedly win away.

COYS!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:09:12:52:00 by Saint Maul.

Small wingers so we can’t be planning on kicking much!
Hope Pollock has a MOM game in front of the frenchies.

I said Furbank might be held together with tape and pain killers to make it through untill the ink drys on a contract, looks like that was a fair assumption.

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St Stokey.
My only concern is the backs cover. Ramm clearly a back 3 player, so I would imagine that Todaro would move in to cover centres and Hutch would cover Fin. Just feels a little makeshift.

It was probably a straight shootout between Thame and Munga, we've only got 3 10's one of them's playing the other 2 are injured, and as for centers, if either of them go down and you end up with Thame playing a lot of the game I think we're bound to lose, nothing against Thame i think he's got massive potential, but an away game at bordeaux is probably a step too far right now.

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Smooothsides

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undersizedprop2
Interesting that Pollock displaces Callum from 8 - predict some picking from the base with explosive pace.

Without Kemeny and because of the 2nd row injuries, it leaves Chick as the only other option at 6.

Coles could have started at 6?

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tigersimon

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Smooothsides

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undersizedprop2
Interesting that Pollock displaces Callum from 8 - predict some picking from the base with explosive pace.

Without Kemeny and because of the 2nd row injuries, it leaves Chick as the only other option at 6.

Coles could have started at 6?

Chick seemed to do ok at 6 against Bath.

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tigersimon

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Smooothsides

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undersizedprop2
Interesting that Pollock displaces Callum from 8 - predict some picking from the base with explosive pace.

Without Kemeny and because of the 2nd row injuries, it leaves Chick as the only other option at 6.

Coles could have started at 6?

I think we'd have seen that if Lockett was fit, but he's not so you'd be looking at Munga starting, and then being subbed for Chick with Coles going into the row, when its less disruptive to do it the way they have done

Largely as expected. I’m not going to question any of the decisions, Dowse and co know what this match means and have selected accordingly. There’s plenty of firepower there and little to fear.

10 cover is a concern….
But fingers crossed for no injuries/silly cards, looks like we’ve gone more or less as strong as we can in the pack, ramm is a good utility option on the bench, and mc parland may have had his coming of age game at bath,
But I might have been tempted to use Tom James as 9 cover as he has filled in at 10 before….

Anything could happen on the day COYS

I am so excited for this one.

My one main concern is a back three of Hendy, Todaro and Sleights getting bombed to death. That being said I doubt Bordeaux kick that much.

COYS please do the arrogant French bar stewards and Henry at least scores so he can run up and do the pulse celebration to Yannick Bru

A real test for Ollie & Todaro against Two of the best Wingers in European if not World Rugby!

Given the N/A the surprises for me were EMM ahead of Kundiona (who seemed to have been No2 TH) and no TJ on the bench (extra 10 cover).

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tigersimon

Given the N/A the surprises for me were no TJ on the bench (extra 10 cover).

I think if we're in a situation where we're relying on TJ at 10 we're going to lose the game, so there's just no point having him there. If Fin gets hurt with 5 minutes to go, i'd trust anyone to step in at 1st reciever for that length of time. If Fin gets hurt before that point, having TJ at 10 over Hutch just isn't going to make a difference, so there's no point compromising the backup 9 (albeit only slightly) for a situation that most likely leads to a loss anyway. It's not ideal but with 2 of the 3 10's injured there's nothing else to be done



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:09:14:08:26 by Smooothsides.

I can’t recall how much Bordeaux kicked in the final, not so much as I recall. Nore can I remember whether they played more off 9 than 10. I think Lucu did the kicking and Jallibert the running. That may change without Lucu of course.

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Sir Hector
I can’t recall how much Bordeaux kicked in the final, not so much as I recall. Nore can I remember whether they played more off 9 than 10. I think Lucu did the kicking and Jallibert the running. That may change without Lucu of course.

I can remember at least two "kicks", but I doubt Furbs can*

Lucu is hopefully a big miss for them. We look strong with the caveats of lack of specialist cover for Fin and centres (though Edo played largely at centre prior to this season, covering centre in this match would represent a massive step up). Bench has some power in the pack to bring on.
This will be a hostile place to play, but think we stand a pretty decent chance and I would definitely fancy us for the win if we were at FG. Safe travels to all who are going and please make yourselves heard!

I agree that injuries sustained last week, plus Furbank's absence have made this a significantly tougher ask. That said I had written us off against Bath a few weeks ago.

I'm a little surprised to see Ollie start, he's been injured so much and seems to need a few games to warm up before hitting his straps when returning. I suspect that's a choice made because Ramm offers more utility from the bench.

A word for Callum Chick, how good that after spending most of his career at the bottom of the table with Newcastle he now gets to lead out the Premiership leaders in a repeat of last seasons Champions cup final. Thoroughly deserved.

Well if we do lose Fin to injury, we always have the option of Mitch running round like a headless chicken until someone pops up on his shoulder! 😁

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Smooothsides

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tigersimon

Given the N/A the surprises for me were no TJ on the bench (extra 10 cover).

I think if we're in a situation where we're relying on TJ at 10 we're going to lose the game, so there's just no point having him there. If Fin gets hurt with 5 minutes to go, i'd trust anyone to step in at 1st reciever for that length of time. If Fin gets hurt before that point, having TJ at 10 over Hutch just isn't going to make a difference, so there's no point compromising the backup 9 (albeit only slightly) for a situation that most likely leads to a loss anyway. It's not ideal but with 2 of the 3 10's injured there's nothing else to be done

Went for the extra 10 cover as Hutch hasn’t been 💯 fit, early withdrawal last weekend.

Nothing against any of those on the ‘Not Considered for Selection’ list but the one name I’d have really liked to see named in the Saints 23 is Anthony Belleau.

I think he’s as good a 10 as Fin Smith and if needed can cover other positions in the backline as well, and particularly for this game being French would’ve been another advantage.

So any views on the Bordeaux team? This was their line up for the final:-

Bordeaux team 15. Buros ; 14. Penaud, 13. Depoortere, 12. Moefana, 11. Bielle-Biarrey ; 10. Jalibert, 9. Lucu (cap.) ; 7. Petti, 8. Samu, 6. Diaby ; 5. Cazeaux, 4. Coleman ; 3. Falatea, 2. Lamothe, 1. Poirot.

Remplaçants : 16. Sa, 17. Boniface, 18. Tameifuna, 19. Bochaton, 20. Vergnes-Taillefer, 21. Gazzotti, 22. van Rensburg, 23. Retière.

No Buros and no Lucu otherwise the same backs.

More changes amoung the pack but some familiar names still. Woki but no Samu.

Overall they don’t look any stronger or weaker. I’d say we are a slightly stronger side from a year ago,, another year of experienc, and playing with a touch more assurity and cohesion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:09:15:31:34 by Sir Hector.

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RDS
Nothing against any of those on the ‘Not Considered for Selection’ list but the one name I’d have really liked to see named in the Saints 23 is Anthony Belleau.
I think he’s as good a 10 as Fin Smith and if needed can cover other positions in the backline as well, and particularly for this game being French would’ve been another advantage.

Belleau isn't as good as fin, if he was anywhere near lions quality there's no way he'd be a backup in Northampton, one of the big French clubs would have picked him up. He's had a good game against Bath, a decent showing against Exeter and Gloucester but id argue he has to bear a decent amount of the responsibility for the comebacks, and then a couple of flashes off the bench and good cup games.

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Sir Hector
So any views on the Bordeaux team? This was their line up for the final:-
Bordeaux team 15. Buros ; 14. Penaud, 13. Depoortere, 12. Moefana, 11. Bielle-Biarrey ; 10. Jalibert, 9. Lucu (cap.) ; 7. Petti, 8. Samu, 6. Diaby ; 5. Cazeaux, 4. Coleman ; 3. Falatea, 2. Lamothe, 1. Poirot.

Remplaçants : 16. Sa, 17. Boniface, 18. Tameifuna, 19. Bochaton, 20. Vergnes-Taillefer, 21. Gazzotti, 22. van Rensburg, 23. Retière.

No Buros and no Lucu otherwise the same backs.

More changes amoung the pack but some familiar
names still. Woki but no Samu.

Overall they don’t look any stronger or weaker. I’d say we are a slightly stronger side from a year ago,, another year of experienc, and playing with a touch more assurity and cohesion.

They are some team and its going to be a hell of a match but lucu is there general. Hes a huge loss for them in my opinion. Rayasi and buros similar level so nothing gained or lost there. Need to limit there dangerous wings

Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

Agree but a red card would have made a large dent in their game.

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

I point the deliberate knock on out after the game and got shouted down on here. It should have been a yellow card and penalty try. Prowse would have scored.

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Smooothsides

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score
a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

You’re making the classic mistake of assuming that if one incident changed the rest of the game stays the same. Player gets carded for hurdling Furbank unnecessarily and injuring him and the rest of the game is completely different so you can’t say we would have definitely lost. A couple of scores in that card period and UBB are in a different mindset and so are saints

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Corkst

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Smooothsides

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score
a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

You’re making the classic mistake of assuming that if one incident changed the rest of the game stays the same. Player gets carded for hurdling Furbank unnecessarily and injuring him and the rest of the game is completely different so you can’t say we would have definitely lost. A couple of scores in that card period and UBB are in a different mindset and so are saints

I feel like I'm actually doing the opposite, we literally didn't score a point in the second half, or even get particularly close. UBB did actually get a yellow card, and we didn't capitalise at all, so i feel reasonably confident that they could have done the same earlier in the game. You could also point to the Bath game where they did get someone sent off, and we still barely scraped past, UBB are a better team than Bath were, and we we're probably better that day.
If Saints were held up over the line several times, or had tries wrongfully chalked off maybe i'd agree with you, but another yellow wouldnot have suddenly meant suddenly started outkicking UBB, or getting over the gainline with much much regularity,

In the meantime, just the 63 points in the first 28 minutes in the Bulls-Bristol match. Bristol currently leading 42-21

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Sometime lurker
In the meantime, just the 63 points in the first 28 minutes in the Bulls-Bristol match. Bristol currently leading 42-21

Bristol leading 28-47 at halftime. They are looking a serious threat to us finishing in the top two in our table.

Unbelieveable. 35-61 at the 60 minute mark.

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Smooothsides

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Corkst

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Smooothsides

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score
a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

You’re making the classic mistake of assuming that if one incident changed the rest of the game stays the same. Player gets carded for hurdling Furbank unnecessarily and injuring him and the rest of the game is completely different so you can’t say we would have definitely lost. A couple of scores in that card period and UBB are in a different mindset and so are saints

I feel like I'm actually doing the opposite, we literally didn't score a point in the second half, or even get particularly close. UBB did actually get a yellow card, and we didn't capitalise at all, so i feel reasonably confident that they could have done the same earlier in the game. You could also point to the Bath game where they did get someone sent off, and we still barely scraped past, UBB are a better team than Bath were, and we we're probably better that day.
If Saints were held up over the line several times, or had tries wrongfully chalked off maybe i'd agree with you, but another yellow wouldnot have suddenly meant suddenly started outkicking UBB, or getting over the gainline with much much regularity,

Regardless of cards, the injuries made a massive difference to our back line. We lost one of the best playmaking fullbacks in Europe, meaning we had to switch our big Lions wing to fullback and not be able to target LBB aerially in the same way. Then the replacement gets crocked shortly after, and the replacement's replacement is not fully fit and firing. Does it then become any co-incidence that both of our tries were scored by forwards?

It will never be proven one way or another, but I still maintain we win that game without those injuries; and frankly am still baffled that there is apparently no duty of care involved when jumping over a player on the floor. Anyway, to tomorrow!

49-61 final. Bristol has UBB next weekend.

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Matthew

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Smooothsides

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Corkst

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Smooothsides

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score
a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

You’re making the classic mistake of assuming that if one incident changed the rest of the game stays the same. Player gets carded for hurdling Furbank unnecessarily and injuring him and the rest of the game is completely different so you can’t say we would have definitely lost. A couple of scores in that card period and UBB are in a different mindset and so are saints

I feel like I'm actually doing the opposite, we literally didn't score a point in the second half, or even get particularly close. UBB did actually get a yellow card, and we didn't capitalise at all, so i feel reasonably confident that they could have done the same earlier in the game. You could also point to the Bath game where they did get someone sent off, and we still barely scraped past, UBB are a better team than Bath were, and we we're probably better that day.
If Saints were held up over the line several times, or had tries wrongfully chalked off maybe i'd agree with you, but another yellow wouldnot have suddenly meant suddenly started outkicking UBB, or getting over the gainline with much much regularity,

Regardless of cards, the injuries made a massive difference to our back line. We lost one of the best playmaking fullbacks in Europe, meaning we had to switch our big Lions wing to fullback and not be able to target LBB aerially in the same way. Then the replacement gets crocked shortly after, and the replacement's replacement is not fully fit and firing. Does it then become any co-incidence that both of our tries were scored by forwards?

It will never be proven one way or another, but I still maintain we win that game without those injuries; and frankly am still baffled that there is apparently no duty of care involved when jumping over a player on the floor. Anyway, to tomorrow!

i agree that the injuries made more of a difference than the refereeing, and like you said impossible to know whether it would have changed the result but Furbank and Ramm's boots would have changed things a fair amount

The rumour thread on late withdrawals looks rather worrying if there is anything in it. More interesting is the Bristol result! We need to get as much as we can from the game tomorrow and then thump Scarlets and get a huge points different to put ourselves on pole position. Then see how the Biz/Bord game plays out!

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Sir Hector
The rumour thread on late withdrawals looks rather worrying if there is anything in it. More interesting is the Bristol result! We need to get as much as we can from the game tomorrow and then thump Scarlets and get a huge points different to put ourselves on pole position. Then see how the Biz/Bord game plays out!

Bristol didn’t get the 4 try bonus point away to Scarlets

So a 4 try bonus point win tomorrow and against the Scarlets will top the group regardless of what Bristol do

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Sir Hector
Then see how the Biz/Bord game plays out!

You have the (Unfair IMHO) advantage of knowing the result of Bris/UBB before you kick off next Sunday.

All the final games in a pool used to kick off at the same time - another thing to add to the list of things wrong with this current ‘European’ competition!

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Smooothsides

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Corkst

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Smooothsides

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score
a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

You’re making the classic mistake of assuming that if one incident changed the rest of the game stays the same. Player gets carded for hurdling Furbank unnecessarily and injuring him and the rest of the game is completely different so you can’t say we would have definitely lost. A couple of scores in that card period and UBB are in a different mindset and so are saints

I feel like I'm actually doing the opposite, we literally didn't score a point in the second half, or even get particularly close. UBB did actually get a yellow card, and we didn't capitalise at all, so i feel reasonably confident that they could have done the same earlier in the game. You could also point to the Bath game where they did get someone sent off, and we still barely scraped past, UBB are a better team than Bath were, and we we're probably better that day.
If Saints were held up over the line several times, or had tries wrongfully chalked off maybe i'd agree with you, but another yellow wouldnot have suddenly meant suddenly started outkicking UBB, or getting over the gainline with much much regularity,

But we had lost Furbs who is a key player in attack. We were also shy of ball carriers through injury and the last players we needed to go off was Mayanavanua. I believe it was a high tackle that forced him off if I remember rightly. If they had have stayed we would have more go forward and a international fullback to help us.

Fin & Ramm out of today’s game.

🇫🇷 Tony & Thame replace them.

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tigersimon
Fin & Ramm out of today’s game.
🇫🇷 Tony & Thame replace them.

Were you seeing that Simon? Also does that mean JJ plays or unconfirmed?

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saintsfella

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tigersimon
Fin & Ramm out of today’s game.
🇫🇷 Tony & Thame replace them.

Were you seeing that Simon? Also does that mean JJ plays or unconfirmed?

Tom Vickers, Chron on Social Media.
JJ still in Team Graphic which includes the changes.

[x.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:11:10:11:53 by tigersimon.

How do you go from not considered to starting at ten? Is that concerning?

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tigersimon

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saintsfella

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tigersimon
Fin & Ramm out of today’s game.
🇫🇷 Tony & Thame replace them.

Were you seeing that Simon? Also does that mean JJ plays or unconfirmed?

Tom Vickers, Chron on Social Media.
JJ still in Team Graphic which includes the changes.

[x.com]

Thanks

I suspect they didn’t want to risk French 🇫🇷 facial injuries and stitches but with no Fin, M1 or Furbs!

Needs must, a real opportunity for French Tony to showcase what the Top14 is missing.

French Tony is no great downgrade plus we won't have any language barrier.

Thame for Ramm is a shame given Ramm's high ball ability but if we need to move Freeman out in the event of a back 3 injury, if anything, its an upgrade and we're reverting to specialist players.

So who is now missing.and who are the replacements? Can't seem to find.details.

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tigersimon

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saintsfella

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tigersimon
Fin & Ramm out of today’s game.
🇫🇷 Tony & Thame replace them.

Were you seeing that Simon? Also does that mean JJ plays or unconfirmed?

Tom Vickers, Chron on Social Media.
JJ still in Team Graphic which includes the changes.

[x.com]

Click on the x.com link..........

Thanks

Pollock!!!!!

Henry Pollock the winger! Superb

Looks like this could be a long day….need to get a hold of the game and keep it away from the scrum….



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:11:15:27:40 by NottsSaint.

Referee is a joke, Hutchison already committed into the tackle. This referee already showing he does not have the experience to referee at this level.

That last try was a joke, french player puts his hands beyond the ball on the ground at the ruck and then starts the counter ruck….

A lot of that happening

Tackling optional

Referee clearly out of his depth!

Saints need to ensure TBP.

They are the better team really. They also had a couple of bits of luck to compound it further.

Some things have gone against us, but our mistakes are our own, and we have simply been outclassed today.
Away to the champions was possible but always a tough task
Away to the prem champions, away to the European champions, 50% win rate, let’s be honest you’d take that
Put it behind us and move on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:11:16:55:11 by NottsSaint.

We haven’t had the run of the green, and we needed to be full strength to have any chance, but Bordeaux have dominated us physically and shown us what the level is

A sobering defeat. Basics not delivered so will show us if you don't get those right then .......

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SaintsAsh
They are the better team really. They also had a couple of bits of luck to compound it further.

Yep, they’ve completely outperformed us

Hope we get them at home next year. We could show then some entant cordial

TBP secured 👍

50 - 28 FT

Commentry saying Belleau lost teeth and had his mouth mashed last week and yet still stepped up today. Apparently the wound opened up in the game!

At times our own worst enemy however ref out of depth - Woki’s try off the kick off At least 4 were ahead of the kicker plus others as referenced

We were humbled in a game we didn’t expect (or as it turns out deserve) to win, yet we come home with a bonus point which might prove very important. The disruption of losing Fin and JJ not being 100% won’t have helped. And we didn’t get many decisions go our way from some less than top notch officials but draw a line under this and move on.

You will have the (unfair) advantage of knowing exactly what you need to do next Sunday with Bristol v UBB having been played Sunday lunchtime!

Question if we finish 3rd in our group but have higher points than a team finishing 2nd in their group who is the higher seed?

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Saint dolph
Question if we finish 3rd in our group but have higher points than a team finishing 2nd in their group who is the higher seed?

2.6 The four highest-ranked clubs in each pool will qualify for the Round of 16. All clubs will thereafter be ranked in descending order based firstly on their ranking in their pool and subsequently on the number of match points they have accumulated, to create an overall ranking from 1 to 16.

The pool winners will be ranked 1 to 4, the second-placed clubs will be ranked 5 to 8, the third-placed clubs will be ranked 9 to 12, and the fourth-placed clubs will be ranked 13 to 16. The Round of 16 will thereafter be played over one match as follows:

R16 1: Number 1-ranked club v Number 16-ranked club
R16 2: Number 2-ranked club v Number 15-ranked club
R16 3: Number 3-ranked club v Number 14-ranked club
R16 4: Number 4-ranked club v Number 13-ranked club
R16 5: Number 5-ranked club v Number 12-ranked club
R16 6: Number 6-ranked club v Number 11-ranked club
R16 7: Number 7-ranked club v Number 10-ranked club
R16 8: Number 8-ranked club v Number 9-ranked club

Just couldn’t quite get our game on the pitch
Perhaps Dingwall as the lynch pin was the missing link
But not many will go there and come away with something

It also helps the coaches and players to indentify areas that we need to work on for the future

Let’s make up for it next week

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tigersimon
You will have the (unfair) advantage of knowing exactly what you need to do next Sunday with Bristol v UBB having been played Sunday lunchtime!

I don’t see how this is an advantage.
Obviously we set out to win every game with a try bonus point, score as many points as possible, and concede as few as possible.
So that’s what we’ll be doing next week regardless?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:11:17:26:28 by St.Sinner.

5 points next week and Bristol v UBB not being a draw guarantees second place in the group. A draw for B v UBB would mean we need to win by 32 points

The four try bonus is a huge consolation prize from a pretty sobering afternoon in Bordeaux.

A few random thoughts:

Bordeaux are a bloody good side.
Ref was at best average.
Saints cannot keep losing really important lineouts.
George Hendy had a stinker - we need Furbs to stay.
Scrum better in second half though BDX got away with multiple first half infringements.
Hutch was just a penalty.
Pollocks first was exceptional.
Not sure we are strong enough to compete on both fronts.
Big win needed against Scarlets and then we shall see !

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Stevie Myler's right boot
At times our own worst enemy however ref out of depth - Woki’s try off the kick off At least 4 were ahead of the kicker plus others as referenced

Happens at restarts and kickoff every week. Refereed the same as crooked feeds at the scrum ; that is ti say ignored.

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Santiago
5 points next week and Bristol v UBB not being a draw guarantees second place in the group. A draw for B v UBB would mean we need to win by 32 points

If bristol win and bordeaux get a losing bonus point they will be on 16 same as us if we win. If they get 2 bonus points we will be 3rd. Plus if bordeaux beat bristol and bristol get 2 losing bonus points they too would join us on 16 with a much better points difference . Theres multiple ways we end up finishing 3rd in our group

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tigersimon
You will have the (unfair) advantage of knowing exactly what you need to do next Sunday with Bristol v UBB having been played Sunday lunchtime!

Yep but that unfairness is spread across the whole of rugby because the Tv companies run the game and not the rugby authorities.

Fairness would see all teams playing the same time but that doesn’t suit the tv.
Fairness would be in the Premiership with 10 teams playing teams home and away in order and not having games in the second part of the season being moved to suit tv sponsors.
If you play team x in game 1 you play them again in game 10; 2 then 10 but this dosent always happen so some games are moved which suit some teams and hamper others especially with players being mandated rest periods.

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Santiago
5 points next week and Bristol v UBB not being a draw guarantees second place in the group. A draw for B v UBB would mean we need to win by 32 points

5 points next week takes us to 16 points and at least 32 points points difference. If Bristol picked up two bonus points then they'd have lost by 7 at most (which would give them a +55 points difference), so we'd need to beat Scarlets by about 25 points to have a better points difference than Bristol would have.

If UBB pick up two BPs then they'd have 17 points, which is more than we can achieve. They have a points difference of 64 currently so we'd need Bristol to hammer them if it's to be us and Bris in the top two.

The most realistic best outcome for us is that we win with 5 tries and a good score, and UBB beat Bris by more than 7.

With the worst scenario being a bonus point draw between them.

There is a very apt letter in today’s The Rugby Paper from someone who highlighted all the Laws that are regularly ignored or conveniently overlooked by officials in every single game.

These include those Laws which specifically relate to the Kick Off, Ruck, Tackle, Line Out and Scrum.

The offences are so obvious that there must be more to it than just one individuals interpretation.

The ref was poor. How he got on to the register is incredible.

The ref was not the reason we lost

We have to win next weekend.

To win next weekend we must perform a darn sight better than we did today.

Knowing the other scores will not help if we play poorly.

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tigersimon

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Sir Hector
Then see how the Biz/Bord game plays out!

You have the (Unfair IMHO) advantage of knowing the result of Bris/UBB before you kick off next Sunday.

All the final games in a pool used to kick off at the same time - another thing to add to the list of things wrong with this current ‘European’ competition!

Bigger advantage is a home tie against UBB as opposed to our away tie. The format is hopeless but we are stuck with it for 3 more years or so.

Fairness would be putting all the names in a hat for the Q/F and S/F stages !

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NGSB
Fairness would be putting all the names in a hat for the Q/F and S/F stages !

But this would mean Leinster don't get a SF in Dublin guaranteed

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St Marcus

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NGSB
Fairness would be putting all the names in a hat for the Q/F and S/F stages !

But this would mean Leinster don't get a SF in Dublin guaranteed

Damn it, I'd forgotten that a semi in Dublin was part of the ERC Charter !

We could make things completely fair and just give Leinster a bye to the final, or at least the Semis, just to avoid any awkward upsets.

It still seems to be that the broadcaster has an influence and shouldn't - in the Prem you'll normally see a replay or two of anything vaguely contentious versus just move on nothing to see here.....

Definitely one of those days where everything just goes against you - late injuries, bounces of the ball (99 times in 100 that flap from Woki goes forward and it's yellow as opposed to somehow going backwards and creating a try!), ref calls etc but the big positive for me was the spirit to keep fighting, keep trying to put our game down and getting the try bonus.

The real disappointment for me was the lineout - potentially slight disruption because of late changes but Coles is the main brain. When we did get decent ball in hand we always looked dangerous but I think we had at least 3 lineouts in the first half pinched or at least spoiled. At least two they go up in front of our catcher - luck or reading of our calls I don't know.

The lineout is the downside of JJ being around - having the big non jumping lock means you need a lot from your backrows..

Chick, Pollock and Pearson are serviceable in the air but only Coles starting yesterday is a real frontline jumper. That meant bordeaux double marked him and had a spare pod to cover the rest.

It's why the biggest miss of everyone not available yesterday for me was Kemeny. He's a proper lineout operator and means teams can't concentrate on one threat and have to react more.

kemeny +1

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Wrench
The lineout is the downside of JJ being around - having the big non jumping lock means you need a lot from your backrows..
Chick, Pollock and Pearson are serviceable in the air but only Coles starting yesterday is a real frontline jumper. That meant bordeaux double marked him and had a spare pod to cover the rest.

It's why the biggest miss of everyone not available yesterday for me was Kemeny. He's a proper lineout operator and means teams can't concentrate on one threat and have to react more.

I think you're spot on with this, just to add it isn't just a JJ problem, but Prowse doesn't really jump either. Pearson and Pollock are both good 3rd options, but i think you really notice it when they're 2nd. Every other game this season JJ has made up for this weakness with his round the park ability, but i don't think him or Prowse did yesterday so when Kemeny is out hopefully we see a different approuch next time, I do think if Lockett was fit we'd have seen Coles at 6.

something else I think i noticed is that in attack we actually lost shape once or twice in multi phase, which isn't something i can really remember seeing for a long time, am i wrong in thinking i saw this? if so i think that's got to just be due to the number of backs injuries and the late drop out of Fin. Him, Furbs, and Dingwall are all big organisers and Freemo just isn't experianced at 13 so maybe he does it less too?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:12:15:07:47 by Smooothsides.

Rugby is a continuous game of evolution and we see that through recruitment and retention too.

Against us a big part of the reason for your win was our inability to deal with JJ carrying something he had only done to a limited extent in games earlier in the season.
He is still very good but teams are ready for it and now work hard to hit him as he's getting the ball rather than try when he's got momentum. Obviously if that part of his game is a little less effective then the things he doesn't do are more of an issue.
I think you're got a pretty good balance.

I thought it was a tough game but you just met UBB on one of those days.
I'm neutral if anything Saints leaning in this game but thought the referee was really good. A lot to deal with and I think he was right the vast majority of the time.
The late tackle was harsh but probably not given if it's actually a legal attempt.
Iyogun was really good but probably should have seen straight yellow for targeting the knee illegally. That's certainly the current refereeing guidance I believe. So cards maybe balanced out.

Smoothside, commentary mentioned how Fin takes the ball to the line differently to Tony, so the late switch after training with Fin could mean the backs were just a fraction off, causing the issues

I could be wrong but it seemed like there were no relays in the coverage, any spare time meant the camera in the crowd picking out famous faces. I've not seen it back due to that but my initial reaction was Manny did get low but brought his arm round to attempt a legal tackle?
Just listened to the bit of the good, bad and rugby and Anthony Watson certainly seemed to think it was one of those days where nothing went for us, they both saw Woki's slap down as a knock on so no try.

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LeicesterSaint
I could be wrong but it seemed like there were no relays in the coverage, any spare time meant the camera in the crowd picking out famous faces. I've not seen it back due to that but my initial reaction was Manny did get low but brought his arm round to attempt a legal tackle?
Just listened to the bit of the good, bad and rugby and Anthony Watson certainly seemed to think it was one of those days where nothing went for us, they both saw Woki's slap down as a knock on so no try.

Unfortunately Manny’s no arms tackle was pretty well evidenced on the replay. Down on one knee and seemingly no attempted wrap. Comms called it as quite dangerous and ‘what should be stamped out the game’ etc. otherwise he had a great game, hope his injury isn’t too serious

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LeicesterSaint
I could be wrong but it seemed like there were no relays in the coverage, any spare time meant the camera in the crowd picking out famous faces. I've not seen it back due to that but my initial reaction was Manny did get low but brought his arm round to attempt a legal tackle?
Just listened to the bit of the good, bad and rugby and Anthony Watson certainly seemed to think it was one of those days where nothing went for us, they both saw Woki's slap down as a knock on so no try.

I thought it went backwards tbh - but clearly a close call and an incredibly fine line between being a penalty/yellow card instead of 7pts to UBB. It summed up our day, really. Yes - Bordeaux were dominant, but the one-sided officiating in the first half gave them the field position and momentum to assert that dominance. No other side have won 5 scrum penalties against us inside a 10-12 minute period all season - and there's a reason for that... The late tackle from Hutch should've been penalty only but the crowd reaction influenced the ref. On that basis, both cards were harsh IMO and the 1-2 man advantage may well have gifted them 2-3 tries.

Huge credit to Manny for changing the picture at scrum time and I think we did well to get a deserved BP in the end. With no yellows, a couple more scrum penalties going our way and the offside line policed properly I think it would've been a significantly closer scoreline.

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LeicesterSaint
I've not seen it back due to that but my initial reaction was Manny did get low but brought his arm round to attempt a legal tackle?

I thought that he got his head in an awkward position and was focussing more on avoiding a concussion than effectively wrapping his arms.

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Smooothsides

I think you're spot on with this, just to add it isn't just a JJ problem, but Prowse doesn't really jump either. Pearson and Pollock are both good 3rd options, but i think you really notice it when they're 2nd. Every other game this season JJ has made up for this weakness with his round the park ability, but i don't think him or Prowse did yesterday so when Kemeny is out hopefully we see a different approuch next time, I do think if Lockett was fit we'd have seen Coles at 6.

something else I think i noticed is that in attack we actually lost shape once or twice in multi phase, which isn't something i can really remember seeing for a long time, am i wrong in thinking i saw this? if so i think that's got to just be due to the number of backs injuries and the late drop out of Fin. Him, Furbs, and Dingwall are all big organisers and Freemo just isn't experianced at 13 so maybe he does it less too?

Yeah probably more correct to say it's the downside of going with the Tank tighthead lock rather than mentioning JJ specifically (and to be clear with him I'm delighted with his upsides). Every system or team composition has it's weakness and Bordeaux ruthlessly exposed that one on the day. Very impressed with their lineout work.

As for attacking cohesion I think we've struggled with multiphase all year - where we've shone is making linebreaks off phase one or two and finishing them quickly - we're not really a multiphase team even when everyone is available. What was the difference for me was the initial phases were just 5% off for a lot of the game. A little too lateral that meant Bordeaux could just come across with us and close the spaces down. That turns half breaks into gainline tackles and linebreaks into halfbreaks.

We did well to stay positive, work through it and keep fighting for the fourth try.

The Woki debate is over whether he made a legitimate attempt to catch the attempted intercept. Done with a single hand this is usually judged on whether he is attempting to lift the ball with his hand or not. In this case he clearly batted it down into the ground. Because his arm was outstretched when he did this, when the ball bounced it came up towards his body allowing him to catch it. There is an argument to say that it went backwards and so is ok, there is also an argument to say that he did not have control of the ball before it hit the ground, the fact that it bounced backwards doesn’t mean it was not a knock on.
I’m unsure of the fine detail of the laws here but had he had control of the ball and scooped it backwards that would be fine but I don’t think that was the case.

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Sir Hector
The Woki debate is over whether he made a legitimate attempt to catch the attempted intercept. Done with a single hand this is usually judged on whether he is attempting to lift the ball with his hand or not. In this case he clearly batted it down into the ground. Because his arm was outstretched when he did this, when the ball bounced it came up towards his body allowing him to catch it. There is an argument to say that it went backwards and so is ok, there is also an argument to say that he did not have control of the ball before it hit the ground, the fact that it bounced backwards doesn’t mean it was not a knock on.
I’m unsure of the fine detail of the laws here but had he had control of the ball and scooped it backwards that would be fine but I don’t think that was the case.

He doesn't need to make an attempt to catch the ball or have control if he plays it backwards.

FWIW I thought, on the replay, he did scoop it towards himself and therfore backwards.

Would've like to have seen that the offside was checked ( which it may have been)

If the ball went backwards then it's not a knock on. In that scenario it doesn't matter whether it was a realistic attempt to catch the ball or not - it went backwards, therefore not a knock on.

Quetionmarks over deliberate or not come into play when the ball goes forward. If the ball went forward off that arm motion then that looks like a penalty to me, but no questions over control, accidental, or deliberate come into play unless the ball is determined to have gone forwards first.